juniors as pump operators?

[FirefighterReed]

How do you feel about a junior ff being the pump operator at a grass fire or a minor fire. Maybe even possibly a working fire? Just looking for feelings on this.

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Find em hot......Leave em wet...

Fire Fighters job is never done

[mark440]

Jr's as pump operators? Ha, let me stop laughing before I continue.
As a Firefighter it is very important to have exactly what you need. There are factors that play into operating a pump, more that driving and chocking the wheels. Engineers are usually on a dept 3-7 years before they are promoted to Engineer. In a VFD where the calls are not very many you need to have the most qualified person running the pump, it is somthing that comes with experiance. It is important that you have the firefighting experiance before you start operating the pump. You need to know how things are going to react when you push and pull knobs and levers on the panel. As a junior, hang out with the ADO and watch if you want but do not operate the pump. Get the firefighting experiance before you start operating the pump.
Take this as you may, but these are my feelings. You asked for them.

Mark

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If in doubt - Call us out

[Engine58]

Welll..I SHOULD be a junior firefighter but unfortunatley my town doesnt have a junior program but getting to my point.My brother is LT and Engineer For our ladder company and from going to wetdowns, drills, etc...I know how to operate the boom and SOME things on the pump but not always but my feelings are YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE A JUNIOR ON THE PUMP PANEL BECAUSE EVEN SOME EXPERIENCED FIREFIGHTERS HAVE SOMETIMES A HARD TIME OR SITUATION THAT THEY GET INTO WHILE PUMPING AND A JUNIOR WOULDNT BE ABLE TO HANDLE THE JOB I SAY.

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Andrew
South Amboy, New Jersey
Junior EMS Responder
"EMTS DON'T DIE THEY JUST STABILIZE"

[FirefighterReed]

I should have been more clear on what I asked I meant to say How do you feel about a junior running the pump on a day time call where you need all the senior ff that shows up. This would be on maybe an mva or grass fire absolutely not at a working fire. The reason I bring this up is because we had this happen the other day a truck was pulling a trailer full of hay that burst into flames and we had two guys and a junior show up. Well the junior had been trained and knew how to operate the pump so we stuck him on it and he done a great job. So what are your feelings on that?

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Find em hot......Leave em wet...

Fire Fighters job is never done

[FF.FOREVER]

There is a fire dept not to far from us that has a jr.ff that runs the lead pumper and can pump with the best of them. I believe if the jr.ff is interested enough in the fire service then they will put more of an effort to learn the fire trucks and their equipment. This jr.ff runs the pump at all different kinds of fires even working fires. I wouldn't of belived it if I didn't see it. I don't believe that all jr.ff can handle the responsibilty of pumping a truck, but there are a few jr.ff that will surprise you. Even though they are jr.ff give them credit where credit is due. The jr.ff just became a senior.

[Fired0g]

What a sad, sad state of affairs.

[BTFD11-19]

I think having a junior pump operator is a great idea. As long as you have enough juniors to change scba bottles. The junior ff can run the pump, more than likely freeing up the most knowledgable ff, the driver, to go interior. Ithink i've heard that only 20 or 30 years ago, 14 and 15 y/o's were driving, wearing packs, going interior, and fighting fires. some "kids" today may not be "the most responsible" but alot of them are very capable firefighters thatr will grow and learn, and are the future of firefighting.

[iresq]

A driver/pump operator's primary concern is the apparatus. Even on a simple grass fire, he should not leave the vehicle. What if something happened to him? Would junior boy drive home? What if something happened to the pump? Would jr. have the knowledge to take the appropriate actions that could save a life or prevent major pump damage? I think not. If you need more resources, call for them.

[SBFire333]

I beleive you should know how to be a Fire Fighter before even thinking about learning to become an MPO. I understand that some Depts. have staffing shortages and are ill expericeed due too lack of calls, but lets not stick someone in charge of running a piece of equipment that has lives attached to it. They are new to the fire service and in experienced at it. Let them learn to be a fire fighter first.

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The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of the organization I belong to.

[Bob Snyder]

First off, this would be flat out illegal in PA. The section of the Child Labor Laws governing junior members under 18 years of age forbids this particular activity, among others.

Second, if you can't turn out more people than this for calls on a regular basis, or at specific times of the day or week, then you need to augment your response with automatic mutual aid, at least during your low-manpower times. I don't need to know the rest of the circumstances to make that statement.

Third, the importance of the activities of the pump operator to the safety of personnel and the success of the operation demands that the pump operator be seasoned and experienced enough to understand not only what's going on at the pump, but what's going on around the rest of the scene. I've often been told that when picking a safety officer, you should pick someone as or more qualified than you are to run the scene. A similar criteria should apply to the pump operator...he/she should be as good or better than you at that pump.

[Quigs]

My department is "fully" ( ha ha ) staffed by career personnel. New Hires, no matter what their experience, are not permitted to be operators until they have completed their 3 year apprenticeship on the job. During their 3 years, they are trained and drilled on a regular basis, and are always with one of our older chauffers. No one is put behind the wheel until our BC, Capt. Sr. Chauffer, and the new guy all feel comfortable.

As for Volunteer companies, I'm sure there are companies that have "jr's" that have practically been raised by their dads or moms at the firehouse. I think the volunteers need to do what they feel is best for them on an individual basis. If you feel little johnny can manage the pumps at a grass fire, or a car fire or something, thats fine. I personally don't want someone who can't handle the job on the supply end of my knob, but I'm sure there are some kids out there who can handle it better than some older men...

If there is a staffing problem in your department, and you only have little johnny and his dad on the first-in, your town needs to look at ways of better staffing their department. Even if little johnny can work the pump... daddy shouldn't be pulling a line inside by himself.

Stay safe.
Quigs

[Fyrball105]

OK, I'm back again, I'm not able to keep my mouth shut on here, so here's my feelings. I feel that a Jr. on the pump can and does work, I come though the Jr Squad at my dept.and the first classes we had was on pumper. I took the fire department engineer class at 16, and it was the jrs that got put on pumps to free all firefighters for fighting the fire. It was no uncommen for me to ride to scene in truck, then run the pump while my driver fight fire.I'm 26 now and an advisor on our explorer post and teaching these guys the pump. IF Not for one of my explorers, on two fires we'd had some guys hurt when the driver of the truck was unable to get water!!! YOU SEE THAT? a 14 y.o. saved the day!! and as using jrs on small fires, things like that I say do it, they have to get pump time somehow, that brings them up makes them good on pumps.

[SBFire333]

I am sorry what kind of redneck dept. are you on??? Why is Driver driving an engine that he can not operate. It is the driver's job to that rig and he is responsible for it. To have a Jr. operate a rig is insane. Someone who is this young should not be even allowed on a fire scene and if they are it is only too watch and observe. Like I said before in my previous post "Let them learn to be a firefighter first". It is too much responsibility to put on a kid who doesnt even know what fire really is. It is no wonder why there are so many LODDs. Stay Safe and Be Smart for the next call.......

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The opinions and views expressed herin are solely mine and not on the behalf of the organization I belong to.

[Sand Creek Lynn]

Fyrball105: What does your insurance carrier think about the department using a 14 year old pump operator? And your township or the political body you serve?

I hope you were pulling our legs.

But if not tell us more about the department. It would likely be a really interesting story.

[FirefighterReed]

The political bodies or township don't care who is operating the pump or the hose for that matter as long as it gets done. Do you think the guy living next door to the fire department even knows what the chiefs name is? No not unless he is in the department which in our case he is not. They don't care about us or how we operate as long as we are there getting it done. Then we you do show up it's always the same thing "What took you guys so long". When your on a volli dept. doing without any county, city, or state funding it comes from our pockets and the fund raisers we do. When we do have them people are so cheap it is hard to get any money out of them.

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Find em hot......Leave em wet...

Fire Fighters job is never done

[Ed Shanks]

>>
I should have been more clear on what I asked I meant to say How do you feel
about a junior running the pump on a day time call where you need all the senior
ff that shows up.
<<

Legalities aside, it would take an exceptional jr. ff. to be trusted with pump operations, on any call.

You wanted opinions - there's mine.



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E-4-A
IAFF 1176
RKMC MAL

[OFD16]

ummmm....no

[Whip]

My opinion is no, one of my reasons, that I have not seen posted so far is the possibility of the truck, or the pump panel becoming part of the IDLH atmosphere, then what, you can't where an air pack, so I guess you then have to leave the panel. It is also more than just being a pump operator, it is safety also and the ability to really understand your supply vs demand, it's not just have someone set it up and you just stand there. As I have said with a lot of other issues pertaining to junior members. The things that you do are very valuable, but please understand the limits of what you can do (leagally). All of the things the most juniors wish to accomplish within the fire service will all come in time. Be patient and be safe.

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Stay Safe.

Lt. Whip FSI/EMT
Ledyard CT FD

[This message has been edited by Whip (edited July 15, 2000).]

[Fyrball105]

ok, I'm going to try and answer all the questions> First I guess you can call us a redneck Dept. No offence taken, we are small vollie dept. manpower is low during day time. You have to be 21 to drive the truck, we have guys that is all they do is drive, then others do the pump, fire fighting. As far as the insurance question, the explorer post is through the boy scouts, they have better coverage then our line firemen. The explorers have two things they are not covered to do, that is enter a house on fire, or be nozzle man on out side. I feel that explorering is a great program, and it shows that teenagers can do good in this time that so many is not doing good things, And No people really don't care how you do it as long as the fire dept. does get there to put out their fire.

[Mike DeVuono]

Some of our nation's greates heros were men under the age of 18. If they know what they are doing who cares how old they are?


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Mike DeVuono
Warminster Fire Dept.
Engine Co. 91

"There are few atheists inside a burning building."

[Quint1Medic]

First off-Fyrball, thanks for the way you replied to the name-calling...you showed some class http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

I'm in a career department where there are a few people that couldn't pump their way out of a paper bag. I can understand the whole liability issue that's been brought up. However, pumping is very much an academic exercise - it involves watching what's going on around you and math skills on the fly. Both are well within the capabilities of a bright 17-year-old.

As for being able to analyze what's occurring on the fireground: most fires take place inside, right? Nobody that's standing by a pump panel is going to be getting much of a chance to analyze anything, because they can't see through walls. There's also some sort of rule that the fire's always on the officer's side of the truck. I spend most of my pump time at fires balanced on the auxiliary 2 1/2" discharges, peering through the empty crosslays at what's going on.

I wouldn't necessarily want a 14-year-old on the panel, but if a kid's been an Explorer/junior for a couple of years, goes through pump class, and is able to pump in various scenarios with different officers - under pressure - then let 'em pump.

[This message has been edited by Quint1Medic (edited July 16, 2000).]

[Dalmatian90]

You know, I've been following this thread since the first day...I was torn then and I'm still torn as to what to say! And for me not have an opinion one way or another, I'm sure y'all agree is rare!

Everyone, for and against is making very good and valid points.

1st, I think *all* members should know how to operate their pumps -- from engaging the transmission, to getting water out of them. At the most basic level, how to shut it down if something goes terribly wrong like a burst line on the loose.

I remain uncomfortable with the idea of leaving a junior member on the pump. But then again, I'm sure there are exceptional young people out there with the maturity to do the job well. And there are a lot of flaky adults out there who shouldn't run a pump!

Maybe we need to ask ourselves what are the traits in the great pump operators we know? Are those skills we can nurture in youngsters? Here's my quick list --
-- Knowledge of the pump and what all those guages mean from a practical perspective.
-- Basic knowledge of hydraulics. Not asking for rocket science, but they gotta now how pressure and flow relate in the lines they have.
-- Multi-tasking -- they can interpret many "inputs" like the guages, softness or hardness of the hose, radio traffic, officers speaking to them directly, and sort out from all that information what they need to know and what they need to do.
-- Communication -- they have to be able to tell someone when something's going wrong without being shy or fearful. I think a lot of people, youngers especially, can be intimidated by the brass just because. They also need to be able to tell an officer of their limitations -- if they're told to do something and can't or don't know how, they have to tell them right away and why not.

Experience helps with the above a lot -- it gives people a frame of reference from which they make assumptions when confronted with a lot of information quickly. As you get more and more experience, the simple things become automatic where you don't think about them, leaving more time to think about the important stuff.

A young member backing up a nozzle man on an outside line doesn't have to think of very much -- he's just focused on a narrow slice of the scene and following someone around. Putting them on a pump where they need to taken in the "whole picture" is quite a bit more responsibility and stress to put on them!

But then again, there isn't a whole lot to take in and interpret at a brush fire or car fire...pretty much make sure you have water left in the tank and the pressure on the line isn't so high the firefighters are being lifted into the air by it! Frankly, on those fires you're probably in a situation where you can set it and forget it with the pump -- open the tank to pump, charge the line, set the pressure and go to the attack.

Matt, still ambivelant as all get out on this one!

[mark440]

I too, started off as a Jr/Exp Firefighter. I played many roles in the dept. I did, although I shouldn't have, operated the pump numerous times on calls. Not do to the lack of manpower but the lack of knowledge & practical experiance of the driver on those calls (most times came from the same driver). Now being almost 4 years out of the post have gone through and certified in IFSTA's ADO for both Pumpers & Arial devices. I relize now what I was doing and frankly it scares the sh** out of me to know what I was responsible for. Back then I felt comfortable with it, now I am somewhat older and wiser and know that it was the wrong decision to accept that responsibility. If I would have killed anyone while "operating" the pump, what would have happened? Would the BSA have covered it? Would I be driven from the Fire Service for the rest of my life because of this one "mis-hap"? I know that I would never be given the trust again to partake of any duties outside of the Fire House! It is an awful lot of responsibilty to assume at such a "young age".

Mark

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If in doubt - Call us out

[Sand Creek Lynn]

Regarding your insurance. The boy scouts are going to cover injuries when you have a 14 year old running an engine? To the child maybe. Maybe!? To any other firefighters not boy scouts? Nope.

Will your deparments liability carrier cover the department or your municipal agency with a 14 year old as engineer? VERY unlikely. And those in charge who assigned a 14 year to be the engineer are going to have a very interesting experience explaining THAT decision to a jury.

I'm in a short handed department also and I can appreciate your situation but you are putting yourselves and the community at great risk.

As firefighters aren't we supposed to minimize the risk to our community rather than add to it?

[This message has been edited by Sand Creek Lynn (edited July 16, 2000).]

[Truck#109]

I know there is no replacement for experience, but......

I was driving/pumping when I was still in my 1st year of service. Now to do this, I took outside courses and every in-house opportunity I could to learn about pumping. I and am now in my fourth year and am teaching fellow FF's about pumping operations.

So I ask - Why should it matter if the pump operator is junior or not, as long as he/she KNOWS what to do!

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Play Safe!

[NOBMAN_K]

I DON'T THINK KIDS SHOULD EVEN BE IN THE FIREHOUSE IF YOU ARE UNDER 18 YEARS OF AGE.

[capt311]

In my department we do train our juniors to pump the trucks but that comes after they have had some formal firefighting training if a kid joins at 14 years old he will not be aloud to touch the pump till he's 17 all juniors and even senior guys that join have to learn the pumps before they get behind the wheel. I really don't like the idea of juniors operating the pump at a working house fire if you don't have enough help to fight the fire call mutual aid.

[FirefighterReed]

You have to be 16 to even join our department. There is only one junior member and he has been trained to operate the pump because that is what he is going to do. He is not left alone on the pump the engineer stays with him at all times but the department is thinking of turning him loose by himself on small fires. On all structure calls even fire alarms our county runs always calls two departments. First it will call the department whose district it is in then in two minutes they page mutual aid to get them going then when the first department arrives they either say send them code 3(lights and siren) or signal 9 them.

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Find em hot......Leave em wet...

Fire Fighters job is never done

[Firefighter2197]

As a former jr. ff I and a sr. ff now I know the first thang you teach any new person cadat or sensior it how to run the pump
if the jr. ff is qualifed then why not
I know i was watching my dad do it when I was 3 yrs old now at 18 I know how to run and have run the pump. The furture of the fire service is little johnny let them do something to keep there intrest up so they will stay in the job. If they are qualifed yes they should be allowed to run the pump on any call
2197
keep it safe and have fun
THE items here are not endorsed by my dept.

[Brian Dunlap]

I'll say not a bad idea but the Jr. should not be left alone on the pump !!! Supervised Yes so that in case the S*** hits the fan a person with more knowlege can step in and correct it before somebody gets hurt....Jrs. should learn to operate pumps but again only under STRICT SUPERVISION !!!

[FFTrainer]

I'm definitely kind of torn on this one. Taking the original question regarding grass fires, car fires and other "smaller" type fires, it is a valid point to possibly have a junior on the pump for educational purposes. Afterall, the majority of people here seem to be saying that experience counts, well then how does one get it without doing it. All the classroom in the world doesn't compare to the fighting through the stress and excitment of a fire. I will definitely agree however with someone's reply that the junior should NEVER be alone. A senior should be studying every twitch that junior makes whether it's wiping sweat off his forehead or pulling a gate. I know that goes against part of the original question regarding day time and low manpower but it is my opinion and there are lives on the line here. This is the way I learned just about everything in the fire service. I learned by doing but always with the watchful eye of a senior. Nowadays I'm the instructor and I will always stick by that method of instruction.
I do need one more comment though regarding the legality of the whole thing. As was posted earlier, what happens when the wind shifts and your panel is all but erased by the smoke, etc coming your way. You now need your SCBA which I was always under the impression you had to be 18 to wear in an IDLH atmosphere. That being the case, I would think the whole issue would be a done deal and the answer would be NO since most juniors are under the age of 18! Now don't jump all over me and say that the regulations, etc are written for career depts. or the ideal world because they are not. Yes they are hard to follow sometimes, for some departments, but they are for US and for OUR SAFETY!! Sorry, I'm an instructor and a little into safety and I can tell I'm drifting off the subject so I'll step back and see what kind of replies I get.

[FirefighterReed]

FFTrainer that was a great point you made and you sound like a true person. I'd like to have you in my department anytime.

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Find em hot......Leave em wet...

Fire Fighters job is never done

[Fyrball105]

OK first, y'all can read the post I have left here and know where I stand on the subject.. I'm not going to use this forum as a place to do personal attacks, I don't feel it is the place for it. But I can not sit here and be silent as to the post left by NOBMAN_K << I have to say that is the narrow minded ways that things are done that is the trouble with today's fire service, not wonder we have a shortage of volunteers, with attitudes like that in the house. I know where I come from and what I did, I was givin a chance and it worked> not all kids can do it, but with out a chance, we just lost another to a street gang or worse? tell me where would you want your kids??

[This message has been edited by Fyrball105 (edited July 25, 2000).]

[jcs077]

In PA as someone mentioned before JrFFs cannot operate any saws, rescue tools, or use SCBA. That is due to State Child Labor Laws and applies to all jobs, not just firefighting. Our insurance carrier says you have to be 18 to drive apparatus. Our own department says 21 to drive. Its foolish to put someone with little or no experience on a pump panel at any incident.

[FFTrainer]

So I couldn't stay away....

Fyrball's post here caught my attention again and made me read through again and see what I missed. As I look back I see the post you are referring to and I will agree with you, to an extent, regarding the nobman_k's outlook on 'kids' in the firehouse. I would like to know my kids are at the firehouse drilling or hanging out with guys I know vs. on the corner looking for trouble. I do have one other thought for you though. Step back and realize that junior programs don't work for everyone and every dept. We just re-established ours and as officers we took some heat from some older members who forced it out the first time. Your junior program may be excellent and well run, but others are not and I can guarantee you that there are people out there with a bad taste in their mouth regarding junior programs that have gone bad. Just remember that when you read some posts that to you may seem out of line.

[RetFireCapt]

I too was a Jr Firefighter but as far as a Junior operating the pumps. Not a good idea!

I was a Junior for two years and I trained, watched, and learned all that I could waiting for my 18th birthday. As Juniors we couldn't ride and that is the way it still should be.

It is not that a Junior member can't do any job a regular firefighter can do. Some can probably do the jobs better but it really is a legal issue.

Many departments are pushing the legal issue with firefighters who are regular members. Departments allow firefighters with little or no training to enter burning buildings. If you follow NFPA guidelines, you can't have two FF I's as an attack team. They must be under the direct supervision of a FF II or higher ( and that doesn't mean the FF II can be out side ). So far as I know this issue has not been pushed in the court system but you can bet it will happen. When a smart attorney approaches the family that has lost a firefighter and mentions money the FD will lose.

I realize this was a little off the subject, but after being in the fire service for 37 years I have seen how things have changed.

[Speedi120]

Ok, I can't say that I know what a pump operator does (well I know what he does, but not how he does it) or how difficult the job is. But from a legal stand point I have to agree. It only takes one attorney and one death or one house or business lost to a fire, to make things worse for a fire department. (I work in that profession believe me I know about attorneys) Fyrball you mentioned Normans post about not wanting kids in the fire station. You make a valid point when you asked what was preferable, the fire department or a gang. But reading all of the post I have to say....(I know you are groaning) I would not want my 14, 15 or even my 16 year old doing something with that much responsibility. Kids at that age are not able to walk away from a disaster and say oh well I did what I could. At that age all things that go wrong leave them with a feeling that they could have changed it, made it better, or stopped it. Let's say that a kid is on the pump, the house is a total loss. Something went wrong at the pump. What feelings is that kid going to walk away with? Will he blame himself? You don't know. I don't know how many years of experience or how many hours of training it takes before you can operate a pump. But with years, and training, you are better capable of handling the responsibility that a firefighter has. You guys can talk about training and age, and capability to do the job but the one thing that no one seems to be thinking about is the mental part. Just because one person might have done it at that age does not mean that another one can. And since there are so many variables and so many things that can happen, no fire scene will be the same as the one you was on yesterday. Sorry bud, but I don't think being a pump operator is the job for a teenager. http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif

[fireater]

I would have to say it all depends on the dept. In my dept I was brought up with my grandfather being a paid chief and in the fire service for over 40 yrs and my father a capt.in the service for 19yrs a and my uncle who is a capt and in the service for 16yrs and before I joined I knew how to operate every truck in our station, in all situations and as well as interior attacks and now I'm a full member and have the same respect and dutys as another firefighter and
called on by the chief officers when there is anything that needs to be done because he know that I will get it done and do it correct. I was opperating in house fire at the age of 16 and driving and operating our truck right in that area as well. Now if we don't have an officer on scene I am the officer until one arrives. I think that it all depends on the person themselves.

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Stay Safe and remember to put the wet stuff on the red stuff

[POC1813]

*SOMEONE* who knows "kinda" what they are doing, is better than No one to do it!

Patrick

[Jay Sonnenfeld]

I'm also from a small dept.At this time we don't have any Jr members, but like alot of previous comments I too disagree with having Jr's be Drivers/operators. They need to complete a certified FF1 school first.Get to know the basics first and then continue on with their education. I wish we had Jr members in our Fire Co. I also think there would be some legal ramifications if( God Forbid )somebody got hurt whether it was the Jr or the seasoned vet on the end of the line. We also have manpower shortage during working Hrs so we use automatic mutual aid from 0600 Hrs - 1800 Hrs Mon - Fri. This seems to work well for us. Good Luck and be safe.

[Bob Snyder]

To the points that have been made about gaining experience...I don't have a real problem with putting older juniors (16/17 years old) on the pumps in contrtolled situations with close supervision during classes and drills (even live-burn drills). These are the times to try to build that baseline experience, and I fully recognize the value of building experience among your juniors (I was one myself, years ago).

Working incidents are another matter, even if they are "small". Remember...those wildfires that are destroying much of the northwest right now were "small" fires at some point days, weeks, or months ago. Granted...many of us can probably judge, within reasonable levels of certainty, when a truly "small" fire isn't going anywhere, but that still doesn't make bending valid policy and law (in some states) a good idea. And, what about that slim chance that we're wrong about that "small" fire??

There are lots of things that juniors need to learn before they learn pump operations. In my opinion, learning the skills to become an engineer come right before learning command skills, and only after an individual has a firm grasp on all those other fireground functions that go on around those engineers and commanders. When I'm on a hose line, that pump operator is the second most important person in the world to me (after the incident commander), at least for the duration of that operation. I want to be comfortable that he/she is at least as certain of giving me the water I need as I would be of sending the necessary water to him/her.

[Inferno]

I think thats its a fairly good idea. What age are we talking about here? In my dept, a jr. is 13-16, which I think is too young for such a large responsabilty. However once they reach the age of say 17 or 18, I think that they are mature enough to handle a job of such stature. On the flip side, alot of the 17-18 year old guys have gotten to the postion of Firefighter II if not III by that age if they have been in since 13 and they would much rather be fighting the fire than playing with the knobs at the pump panel. Sometimes when you have a truck like a quint where there is a ladder and a pump panel to operate that are totaly seperated from eachother and the driver cannot operate both, it is vital to train reagular firefighters to operate one or the other. Also I say to young guys that are elgable to become drivers but opt not to, at least train to on some of the trucks so when you have 15 (elgable) guys that can't drive looking at eachother in the fire station while a house is fully involved down the street, you can get them there.

TO ALL THE OFFICERS: For the jouniors to become sucessful, they must first GET TO THE FIRE SCENCE! Be a nice person and put a jounior up on your truck!

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When In Doubt, Blitz It Out!

[RDWFIRE]

Lots of good points on this topic. One point before I have my say...there's no such thing as a "minor fire". Firefghters are killed each and every year at "minor fires" that blow up. In our department it is just plain not acceptable to place a "junior firefighter, cadet", or what ever else you call them, in harm's way. To do so only asks for more legal trouble than most departments can afford. That said.....we have some cadets that show more dedication to learning ALL facets of firefighting than some of our regular members. Use them wher you can but remember, let them be cadets, they will be old enough, and experienced enough to do the whole job soon enough.
Be patient my friend!

Be safe. The dragon lurks!!

[This message has been edited by RDWFIRE (edited August 25, 2000).]

[RDWFIRE]

Only one further comment. NOBMAN...how old were you when you wanted to be a fireman? Cadet programs are an excellent tool for training future firefighters. Lets not be so harsh in our opinions. Explorer posts and cadet programs have turned out many excellent firefighters.

Just my opinion.

[LOFD_E511]

I believe that if the firefighter has enought knowledge and the engineer does not mind, that it is ok, as long as it is a small fire with no real potential. Also as long as the firefighter is truly interested in pump operations. I would also like to add that you must be over 18 to do anything in our department and you also have to be over 21 to drive Code 3.

Richard - Seasonal FF/Vol. FF
Sutter County Fire - Station 5
Live Oak, CA

[This message has been edited by LOFD_E511 (edited August 26, 2000).]

[Firefighter454]

In my department Juniors can operate pumps
only during traning details under very close
supervision.I think that if you have 17-18
year old Junior that knows how to operate the pump thoroughly let him start on the small fires and gradualy work his way up to larger ones.That way when he becomes a senior
he has expirience and is able to do a good job when needed.

[Jason Pickering]

Bad idea. For 1 rookie puke's need to learn the basics first. Every Driver should be experianced. Meaning they need, just like an officer to know the abilities of the firefighters. If your pumping a Engine and give me the presure that the S.O.P. says to give me I will laugh. Our's for a 1 3/4 line is 120psi. you had better begivin me about 175psi. Probies don't have the knowledge to pump let alone drive a $500,000.00 piece of equipment. Everyone should be able to drive and pump but for your own safety you better be drilling with them everychance that you get.Drill,Drill,Drill. Give them senarios when the time is right. Start off small like drilling with a simple single stage pump on the brush rig. Show them how a pump work not just how to pull leavers and make sure they know how to read a psi. gauge don't laugh you will be surprised at how many people can't.
Be Safe

------------------
My views on topics does not in any way reflect the views of the South Haven Fire Dept.

[cAdEt91]

knowing how to operate the pump and doing it isnt too hard. its knowing what to do and doing it when something goes wrong can be a little tricky. so to generalize this topic and say if its good idea/bad idea wouldnt be fair. leave it up to your department, they know the jr. ffs and know their abalities. mabey they're fine with the idea, but the insurance company is a little weird about kids operation fire equiptment(something about loss of lives and a couple thousand dollars just doesnt make them habe a good day)

[canman]

They aren't allowed in a burning building and don't have the experience. No thanks jack I don't want them watching my lifeline.These yunguns need to learn how to read the books then throw them in the fire.

[canman]

I don't care how experienced junior is he should be on the end of a hose at a grass fire also looking and learning and not operating the the pump.

[SFD-129-3]

Boy, at first I thought this was a thread by Ifearwhatyoufight. Sadly, though, its a real one. There is just so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin. Not a slam on Jr.s, as my dept uses them extensively(NOT AS OPERATORS, THOUGH!). If you are that short on people, two words for ya-MUTUAL AID!!!! It's illegal, as per the child labor laws, its just a poor idea, and a huge risk to your line crews and the town you serve.
P.S. If you have people driving who don't want to pump, tell them to get in the back and keep their fingers off the siren. Operating the engine also includes operating the stick or pump. Learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[daysleeper47]

SFD-129, how does it violate child labor laws?

[SFDAJL]

Being a Junior myself, I have to agree. Though I've been on my department for almost a year now, and am pretty familiar with our apparatus (except our new truck) and i'm still intimidated by the pump panel, nevermind having to operate it. I think allowing for the juniors to watch the engineer, and the engineer shows us (juniors) what does what and how to control it, and mayby let us take the controls at a drill for like 5 minutes, under strict supervision.

------------------
Andrew Landstrom
Station 71
Spotswood Vol. Fire Department
Spotswood, New Jersey

You light 'em, We fight 'em

[FFTrainer]

Daysleeper --

Take a look back at my post on page 2 regarding what if you need to wear an SCBA, etc. You need to be 18 in the state of NJ to do that. Not to mention you also need to be 18 to operate power equipment and the last time I checked a fire pump is one of the most powerful pieces of equipment out there.

Just a thought. My original post is a little more in depth so take a look when you get a chance.

[SFD-129-3]

Daysleeper, the pa labor laws state the minor may not operate fire equipment. i would believe that is primarily aimed at driving, but it wouldn't be a far stretch to say the pump or aerial is included. Also, minors are not allowed to operate high pressure systems: Jaws, cascade or hose lines. It may not be specifically outlawed, but I would say the spirit of the law would be against it.

[KS.KE,EMT/FIRE/RESC]

FF.FOREVER:
There is a fire dept not to far from us that has a jr.ff that runs the lead pumper and can pump with the best of them.[/QUOTE]

HOO, let's talk liability, I know when I first got into fire service I Wanted to know the trucks, and I got yelled at by some not all who were responsible for the engines.
I believe if the jr.ff is interested enough in the fire service then they will put more of an effort to learn the fire trucks and their equipment. This jr.ff runs the pump at all different kinds of fires even working fires. I wouldn't of belived it if I didn't see it. [/QUOTE]

That's great but one person is responsible for at least four on a working fire. Now can the jr. ff be with the engineer oh, yes best place for them, and after the jr. ff gets some nozzle time on these small type fires they appreciate why they were not allowed the job of "runnin' the pump"

I don't believe that all jr.ff can handle the responsibility of pumping a truck, but there are a few jr.ff that will surprise you. Even though they are jr.ff give them credit where credit is due. The jr.ff just became a senior. [/QUOTE]

This would be the time to be let alone, don't force the time issue use it to your advantage.
But also let me state there have been times when we've needed every hand we could muster, and I've opted to leave a back up engine running under the care of a less experienced ff. I look back at it and nothing catastrophic happened but I would not like to be put in that situation again.



------------------
M. Cory Myers
EMT-I/FF/RESC;TO

it's better to load N go then stay N play

[jizumper-5]

Bob Snyder first stated it is not legal for a jr (under 18) to run a pump. And he was correct. Coming up from junior ranks about 6 yrs ago I kind of know the labor laws pretty well. You would have to read them to get the exact wording but sfd-129-3 basically covers the intent of the law in his postings.

My opinion is a jr(or probie at that) has so much to learn about the basics never mind being a "operator". Personally I want someone on the pump that knows what is going on inside. A jr just can not have that knowledge. Now I know that is an ideal world since some departments have guys that just want to drive. I am not a fan of that either for the reason I just stated. I see the need for all the basic fire fighting skills to be harnessed before one can move on to such positions as operator, senior ff, officer, etc.

Secondly i really do not want to justify legally if something should happen while jr is operating a pump. You will just open yourself up to much trouble. That is my 2 cents.

------------------
Keep Safe!

[This message has been edited by jizumper-5 (edited 06-04-2001).]

[fireman_1]

from where i come from our whole 2 jrs. are trained to pump the trucks if there is not enough manpower! but these jrs. have grown up around the fire dept. because a family member is on the dept. so these guys actually know more than some firefighters on the dept. about pumping trucks. what are you going to do with the jrs. if they aren't pumping the trucks and you don't have enough manpower...send them in?

[SFD-129-3]

Our juniors are responsible for staging tools, changing bottles, chasing out kinks and helping the command officer and pump operator. If you are so short of manpower, something drastic needs to be done! Either automatic aid or start considering a paid dept!

[FireDoggy1404]

Better than Having a cop as an Engine Operator, LOL

------------------
Firefighter C.M. Baker

[cozmosis]

<< from where i come from our whole 2 jrs. are trained to pump the trucks if there is not enough manpower! >>

Get on the radio and call for mutual aid. You need trained firefighters at every position.

Do the citizens you protect know that staffing is so low that you have to put juniors at key positions? What would happen if they found out?

[SFD-129-3]

Originally posted by fireman_1:
and you don't have enough manpower...

not to beat a dead horse, but it seems you answered your own question. They are called "CHILD Labor Laws" for a reason.

[Jay19fire]

FirefighterReed, I think that it is a great opportunity and wonderful idea. I am a junior in my company and two weekends ago I was trained on how to pump on one of our engines. I have pumped on the engine during drills so I can say that i know what im doin. I think that all juniors should be trained in pump operating just in case scenerios arise. It is better to be safe than sorry, and as for what you did. There is nothing wrong with it! Stay safe!

*These are the opinions of myself and not of the Brookside Engine Company #1.

------------------
-JaY-

[fireman_1]

I know Mutual aid should be called...but while they're on the way are you going to stand back and watch the fire burn? Why are all you old timers and even some young guys so biased against jrs.? So what if they are a few years younger than you! They can still know as much or even more! Age really doesn't matter unless you have one that is really immature! No we aren't short on manpower, but if it happens during the day what are you going to do? We do have a system with KTH that they let our manpower out, but they are kind of like mutual aid, they're on their way as soon as they find out! If the jrs. are out of school, they respond! I think I've left some things out, so don't cut on this!

[medtranz]

How can I put this? ummmmm....HELL NO !!!!
If I go interior there better be someone who has experience with the pump.JR FF are nothing but trouble in this situation.They do not have the knowledge to make split second decisions. 99% of them would not know what to do if say the idler failed.It is just
a death waiting to happen.

[SFD-129-3]

Ive come to the conclusion that no matter how much arguement is put up against the practice, people still won't understand. Check your state laws, they are the deciding factor. There is no way in hades that I would allow a jr to run the pump on anything other than a training run, and even then under immediate supervision. They are junior firefighters, and I will refuse to believe that they will be qualified or experienced enough to handle the pumping.
As I said before, they are "CHILD LABOR Laws" in place to protect them as what they are: CHILDREN!!
that is all.........

[toneloc177]

;) i'm glad things worked out in the situation where only 2 ff's & 1 JR showed up. The junior should be commended, and the OIC should have his head examined.

2 guys (showed up?) :eek:

1 could pump, and the other could always stretch a booster, or the car fire lengths or simultaniously use the deck gun, if they had a water supply.

what people in the vollies need to realize, is that we are so 'over-confident', that we over-extend ourselves to the point that we are putting our lives in even MORE danger, than is necessary.

what were these guys (in the situation mentioned) thinking? :confused: it's a freaken truck, w/ hay. HAY! let the fukin thing burn! Try and contain it from gettin to the cab if at all possible, and just say, what the . . . (HAY) where are the other units from this department? was mutual aid ever considered? did someone there even think to re-alert? who ran this fiasco!?!?!?!?!? a chief? line officer? senior guy? THANK GOD IT WASN"T A JOB AT A COMMERCIAL BUILDING!

i'm glad the fire went out, and everyone was safe and made it back to the firehouse in one piece. someone was watching over that 'junior crew' that day. :)

[extricationresearch]

When I started in the fire service, I was 14 and a Jr. I was never called a junior and my helmet was the same color as everyones. We had different color helmets but the officers gave me things that they did not give the rest of the kids. At this age I was fighting fire and cutting doors. When I was 16 I was teaching auto extrication classes at fire schools all of the tri-state and driving apparatus. The other juniors changed my bottles and handed me tools, so I think it should depend on each person and how good of a job they can do not how old they are. You had to be 18 at my fire department to be a firefighter, but I was out at 2:00 am like the rest of them.

[Jake the Hose monkey]

I was a junior ff till next month and then ill be a real fireman, i pumped our supper pumper at a barn fire one night but i put to much pressure on the line and our chief feel off a ladder and hurt her back, she dont let me touch the truck nomore accept to wash it. gotta take pump schol soon though so i can drive Wahhoo.

[Tw93Andrew93]

This would be insane in our department

[FHandz17]

Hey Hose Monkey,

Why don't you put off "pump" school and concentrate on modern English classes (unless you are joking in your post)

Your brother in Grammar :p

[Firebear230]

Juniors belong in one place, riding backwards and where you can see'em till they get their sh*t together. Too much can go wrong on any fire for an inexperienced probie to be controlling one of the most vital aspects of the fire ground. I've been in the field for five years and I'm still just a lever puller. Give them time to calm down and REALLY learn what they are doing before giving them more responsability.
Stay safe ;)

[fire69dawg]

We have an explorer post that is available to us. We try as much as possible to utilize them. Alot of times they are just helping refill bottles or rebed the hose, general cleanup. But then again they also get a chance to learn while they are there. One instance was the explorers showed up and were helping with cleanup, then we just finished aour investigation of the fire and they were able to walk through to see burn patterns, ignition sources, etc. They seem to enjoy that most.And we all know that every bit of help is appreciated come clean up time.

[hazmat112]

I think all that really needs to be said is NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!!!!!
I'm not about to risk the safety of myself, my crew or the general public because I put a kid at the helm. :mad:

[C Montgomery]

I see both sides of the issue. I believe that under IFSAC guidlines you must first be certified as a Firefighter 2 prior to being certified as a Driver / Operator I know IFSAC does not govern department procedures but could be used as an accepted practice or industry standard in a legal proceeding. I believe someone brought up the issue of operating in an IDLH atmosphere. This also holds merit if wishing to comply with 2 in/2out. If your department considers the pump operator as one of the two out on initial resonse than this also may get you in a legal bind. Now with stating all the legal issues, common sense may lean towards utilizing all your resources to maximize fireground effectivness. This may mean using a junior member during small grass fires. In my opinion if the incident is this small in size then there should be no reason the junior member could not operate under the supervision of an expierenced operator for the purpose of training.

[Romania2]

Without reading the other answers to this question I will post my response, so if I am repeating another answer...sorry.

A few years ago I would have answered sure, why not it doesn't take much to pump a truck especially the newer ones. However, I now am an engineer (by job not title :( ) and I have a differnet outlook on the whole thing.

Yes, a junior could pump a truck on minor fires to gain experience. By minor I mean car or dumpster fires w/o exposures, small brush fire in light fuels, etc. Here is the catch... They must be watched by a senior member who has been Certified to pump that truck. Any fire, even a small one can become a complicated/chaotic situation w/o warning and the experienced operator needs to be able to retain control of the rig as required.

No, a junior should never pump a working structure fire, especially a fire where crews are operating interior. First, with 2-in/2-out a common policy is to have the Engineer as the secondary IRIC member and a junior firefighter is not capible of filling this role. Second, the requirements of an engineer at a working structure is far more than pumping.

The responsiblities of an engineer are much greater than I ever understood until I pumped my first working house fire. I can tell you that the only thing worse than hearing the word "mayday" over your radio is watching the only hose line your crew has on the inside of a working wearhouse burst in two (after being driven over by an idiot truck driver) as heavy smoke pours out of the door your crew entered and knowing that they are 200+ feet inside... how fast can you replace 100' of 2-1/2" and get that line charged again.

Sorry, If a junior is interested in becoming an engineer he should focuse on learning the job of firefighter as best he can first. As a junior, if you find yourself at a worker and the is nothing else that needs to be done, ask the engineer if he neds help with anything and watch how he does his job.

JMO

[captstanm1]

In order to be a good pump operator you must first be a firefighter (my opinion) and threfore junior firefighters should not be operating a pump...minor fire or not.....

Besides...Labor laws probhibit the operation of motorized equipment other than cars in most states unless there is a work permit.

Other thing is maturity. In most cases (99%) the Juniors do not have the maturity to be able to handle a stress situation like that. They do not have the reasoning ability and analytic ability to make decisions and watch events unfold on the firegound. In some cases (I have seen it) the pumpe operator doubles as the IC...is this the place for a 16 yr old?

I vote NO WAY!

[AXE]

I think juniors on the pump panel is not a good idea. And even at scenes where you need your senior men on the lines... What IF those senior men lost water... or didnt get it at all.... You have to realize that if a situation arrizes and there is not enough manpower... I dont think you should resort to that nor do I think juniors should be fighting the fire. It is my opinion that juniors are juniors for a reason... to learn what and where equipment is. Their time will come.

[rcbadabing182]

i have been a mpo now for three years and have a little over five years with my dept..i have pumped both rigs countless amounts of time..from fully involved house fires,car fires,boat fires,propane burn off operations..i do believe you should have a few years under your belt..how many,well that for the captain and chief mpo to decide..

[ggtruckie]

I am with captstanm1 on this one, even though i do think that some junior members are quite mature, a certain amoutn of experiance is nessesary. It wouldnt hurt to start to teach them the basics, for edjucations sake, and so they understand that they should do well in school subjects like math, but they should not be running a pump, experiance is key in a position like this, most pump operators are not supurvised, because the crew is going in the fight the fire, so this will also cause great legal issues if somthing were to go wrong. I would say it wouldnt hurt if a jr member wanted to observe the DPO, but should not take on the responsiblity of operating the pump.