Do you want to ride the BOARD again? [Archive] - Firehouse Forums

04-30-1999, 05:52 PM

I'm looking for some input and general discussion from some of the old timers as well as the thoughts of the newbies. It seems that since I began in the Fire service in 1984 things have really changed. When I started I got to ride the tailboard for a few months then this BIG safety standard NFPA 1500 came about and many things changed. I will agree some for the better but also some changed for reasons unknown to me. Now I haven't been around all that long but I am wondering if some of these standards are "SAVING" us to death. I.E. Heavy, hot fully encapsulated suits for all types of fires . We must wear Full turnouts to every type of fire. Are we going too far in some structures? Are we having heart attacks at car fires? Are we suffering heat stroke at grass fires?
Was it any different in the old days?
I had a cousin in Maryland that died while in the cab of a fire engine. This happened in 1963. If he was on the board I would be drinking a beer with him today. Are we too safe?

TRUCK 110

04-30-1999, 10:20 PM

Well Ed..I guess I'm an Oldster..Been on the Line since 1974..As far as I'm concerned..I think FF Safety on the Fire Ground is Paramount, So lets compare:

Turnout Gear: 1974..It was Rubber Gear, that had No Goretex Liner..So it did not breath..and they Burned and absorbed Heat, because they were Black..3/4 Rubber Boots..So they did not protect anything..just kept your Feet from getting Wet..Orange Plastic Gloves..Melted whenever you touched Something HOT..Helmets were either Fiberglas or Plastic with no Skull Cap..So you had Meltdown, no Impact Protection, and No Thermal Protection..and you did not Have a Face Shield.

SCBA's: They were Demand Style, so they did not Force Air into your Lungs when you were Unconscious..They weighed 35# because were equipped with STEEL Cylinders..And the Mask let everything into it, if you did not Get a Good Seal..There was No Such thing as a PASS Alarm.

Vehicles: Well in the Old Days, There were people who would dress enroute to the Alarms, even on the Back Step..There was No Communication to the FF's on the Backstep, unless your Fire Dept. put in that Expensive Intercom System or you put that Buzzer in the Cab and on the Backstep to Send Morse Code. In Fact in 1974, Some Departments did not even have SCBA's mounted in the Jump Seat, and for Sure did not provide for the Driver to even have an SCBA if they needed it.

So lets see..1999..

Turnout Gear: Does not Melt;Breaths and is Lighter.Gloves that protect Hands from Direct Flame Impingement, and are Cut Resistant. Helmets that have Impact and Thermal Protection and they do not meltdown.

SCBA: Lighter in Weight with Smaller Cylinders that hold More Air. Also Hold a Required Amount of Air for the FF. Built in PASS Alarms, that come on when you turn on your Air Supply..and Some with FF Locators Built-in. Also able to Refill a Trapped FF's Cylinder during a Rescue, to preserve their Life while we try to save them.

Vehicles: Totally enclosed..More Lighting..Air Conditioned For FF Comfort To and From the Alarm, and for use on the Fireground for Rehabilitation of FF's.

I think the area we have not Hit is the Fire itself..1974 more Wood less Plastic ..1999 Wood only if you can afford it, lots of Plastic..Check your Television; Does it have a Wood or Non Plastic Cabinet? Unless you make Big Bucks.. How about the Kitchen Table and Chairs?

How about our outlook to save Money..1974.. Energy Conservation was just winding up; Now if you don't have Triple Glazed Windows, and 6" of Insulation, you are paying for it dearly.

I think the Job is Killing us..More Work..less people..and our Way of life..Stress and Poor Habits..

Thank you for letting me air it out..I'm less stressed out now..

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[This message has been edited by TRUCK 110 (edited April 30, 1999).]

BVFD

04-30-1999, 10:32 PM

I agree that sometimes it seems that we go too far. As far as riding on the boards, I agree that it should not be allowed. I'm sorry to hear about your cousin, but remember, seat belts are the same way. They're supposed to save lives, but sometimes they cause more problems than they stop. Stay with it, and make your opinions known! They may influence changes in standards, just like previous people's have influenced the way we operate now.

Ledbelly

05-01-1999, 02:36 PM

ED- I gotta go with Truck 110 on this one...more (rules) ain't always better but most of these have made our job a little safer. I started in '85, so I'm not an old-timer...but did ride outside a few times too. It was a HOOT, but I can remember a few trips that scared the hell out of me and the talking to I got as a rookie about which drivers to Watch Out for! Specifically, we are suffering from grass fire-fighting in our structural gear, but a move is under way to get some lighter weight stuff for those occasions. Like BVFD sez...it is/will be our opinions and input that make things better so I'm glad to hear from you. I have heard a few of our older guys grumble about bunkers and hoods and SCBAs..."I used to know when it was too hot cuz my ears started melting"...but personally, I can still tell when it is getting too hot and I've still got my ears...and I like it that way. Hopefully, Our influence can "fix" the rules that lack any sensible foundations.

IRESQU2

05-01-1999, 04:39 PM

I will toss my two cents....

I would love to ride the runners, after all that is one of the perks of the job....right??

Well when I face reality I can only agree with Truck110. Imagine riding down the road on the back step..all is good as you get dressed for the alarm you are responding to...then the unexpected happenens, the city is doing construction and you are unaware of the "Dip" ahead. End result, you company is standing outside you room in the CCU, Wondering if they will be able to enjoy another summer cook-out with the "boys" and the family?

Sure i would love to ride the boards, but I would much rather ride in a cab than in th eback of an Ambulance!

thats my two cents worth, not worth much but free for the taking

Ken Apel

05-01-1999, 05:27 PM

Ed- well I guess I can call myself an oldtimer. Made my first run in 1952 on the board of a 1924 Ahrens- Fox. I agree with 110 that things are a lot safer now and thats as it should be. What gets me is that every rookie in his first week of academy has become a safety expert. Every picture in every magazine they scream about if just one clip is undone. You should know by now that at every scene, things happen that shouldn't and almost everyone is aware of it. Yes, it was a lot more fun then but don't wish for that time back. Hose was three times heaver,we had filter masks not scba,ladders weighed a ton and the standard work week was 72 hours-24/24. Manning was greater but we used up manpower a lot faster.

Scott Clark

05-03-1999, 10:23 AM

I have got to agree with Truck 110. NICE RESPONSE JOHN! I think the reason why firefighters are getting injured and dying at the same rate today despite the 49% national decrease in fires is, poor training and a lack of physical fitness awareness. Example - look at these forums. We have more people answering questions about color of vehicles or how good they think a TV show is compared to the forums about Training, Lifesafety, and Adminstration. If we don't aknowledge these issues, then like most good idea's they become lost in the "Fire Service Let's Not Deal With Reality Zone". Besides poor training or lack of training is, physical fitness and physical awareness. Many departments do not enforce annual physicals and do not promote physical fitness programs in their fire stations. When I launched a big physical fitness program for my past department (and Truck 110 I'm sure has seen the Equipment that was purchased) It has help reduce the on-scene injury rate for that department. The only ones that get hurt are the ones who don't use the equipment and are the same people that fought the program and still do today! Imagine That! I will always remember the quote of one of the firefighters who stood up and oppossed the program. " All of this is so stupid, we never had to worry about this stuff when I was fighting fires". That member is now out on disability from an injury, need I say more!

resqcapt

05-03-1999, 10:26 PM

Preach on Scott! We too have been fighting tooth and nail for physical fitness programs for the past several years. All I can say is keep the faith, we WILL prevail!

I agree with your comments on training also. It's time to get back to the basics and reality based training. And maybe even (gasp) try out some new ideas!

Look out dinosaurs, there's another comet coming!

Stay safe and keep on training!
-Steve

[This message has been edited by resqcapt (edited May 04, 1999).]

E7engineer

05-03-1999, 10:42 PM

I started in 1980. Helmets were made of a material that would melt around your ears. Face shields were not used, the firefighters before me, wore them backwards to protect there face from the heat. Our first fire engine was a 1959 Airport crash truck. We called it the 50 - 50 truck. ( you had a 50% chance of getting it in gear the first time.)
as for riding the tailboard, I loved it!!!!
Sirens screeming as you went down the road.
The only problem was when a tractor trailer was behind you...We lost several FF to rear-end crashes, involving tractor trailers.
If you wore a SCBA, you were a weaking. A true Firefighter ate smoke...most of ththe guys with that idea is at the big firehouse in the sky...Bottom line Truck 110 is correct. but I'll still think about riding the tailboard.

FRED

05-06-1999, 02:56 PM

I can see the argument for some safety rules but in an effort to eliminate all hazzards I beleive that there have been some unforseen consquences.
First in a number of studies have been conducted which show that Black Gear does not add signifigantly to core body temp. Only to the temp of the clothing it self even then it is negligible.
Other studies have shown that while Bunker gear does prevent Burns to the lower extremites It however increases the Bodys core Temp. Causing heat stress on the heart and other bodily systems. Which leads to Heat Stroke, Exaustion and even heart attacks.
It has also lead to more and more firemen being exposed to flashover and extreem temps that in the past would have been noticed before critical levels. Many have had difficulty finding the fire or relizing it was rolling over their heads because the sensory input we used in the past(i.e. ears and neck)have been eliminated.
One must ask himself. Do I mind geting some burns now and then, or would I like to die of a massive Heat Stress induced heart at the age of 45.
In this period of budget cut backs and having to do more with less, the duties & stress on Firemen will not diminish any time soon.

David Hardinger

05-06-1999, 07:35 PM

I agree with ladder 110. I started in 1977 and must admit, riding the tailboard was fun, except when it was cold, or raining or snowing, etc., not to mention the accidents and injuries. Overall, we're alot safer out there today than when I started and that's what counts.

Take care and be safe out there.

Brian Johnson

05-07-1999, 02:22 AM

Reading your comments brought back lots of memories. I had my first ride in 83 and rode the tailboard until 88. Wow what a gas. Screaming down the streets sirens blaring, holding on for dear life. Coming back from calls I always felt like I was in a parade. The kids would wave and the girls would (let's not go there).

That being said riding tailboards is dangerous. We had to have a fireman fall off and crack his skull open like a pumpkin before someone thought we ought write an SOP forbidding this.

Better equipment, safer techniques, rules that look out for our safety, these are all good things.

Stay safe

Brian Johnson
Assistant Chief, Training
MCAS Iwakuni, Japan

nsfirechap

05-07-1999, 03:24 PM

Gotta jump on Truck 110's bandwagon and wholeheartedly agree. I've been doing this job since 1977 when as an air force firefighter I wore a crash suit lined with asbestos(of course the liners all were torn)! I must admit at times I feel inconvienienced, but I'd rather be inconvinienced for safeties sake. Personnally, I loved riding tailboard. It was funand exciting(Who wore the safety strap-NOT ME! But how many of our brothers and sisters were injured or lost their lives riding tailboard-IT JUST AIN'T WORTH IT. My Grandfather started fighting fires in Bayonne New Jersey in the 30's. I remember hearing stories that when these new fangled air packs came along he wouldn't use one-real fireman breathed in smoke. well, I didn't get to know my grandfather because he died at 52 from throat cancer. If he'd worn them, I might have had a chance to meet him.

Jeff

[This message has been edited by nsfirechap (edited May 07, 1999).]

SMOKEYSAM

05-08-1999, 05:32 PM

ED-I'VE BEEN AROUND SINCE 1968. SEEN SOME GOOD THINGS, BAD THING AND REALLY DUMB THING. BUT AS LONG AS THE FIRE SERVICE THINKS THAT NEW LAWS ARE GOING TO MAKE OUR JOB SAFER AND SIT BACK AND DO NOTHING ITS GOING TO GET WORST. NOT TO BASH SOME YOUNG GUYS, BUT SOME DO HAVE THAT ALL OF THE FANCY NEW WHISLE AND BELLS WILL MAKE OUR JOB SAFER. GET REAL, IT'S A DANGEROUS JOB AND BUTTOM LINE IS THAT'S WHAT THE REAL FIRE FIGHTERS ARE HERE FOR. I FIGHT A FIRE THE SAME TODAY AS I DID 30 YEARS AGO, THE ONLY THING IS THERE'S MORE BS TODAY AND LESS FUN. I DIDN'T KNOW WE WERE DOING ALL THEM THING WRONG LONG AGO. OR IS IT THE MANUFACTURES GETTING SMARTING A TELLING US WE HAVE TO HAVE THIS OR WE'LL BE IN NONCOMPLIANCE TO A LAW THAT THEY LOBBIED FOR. TO MAKE OUR JOBS SAFER, NOTTTT, TO MAKE MORE $$$$. BUT ED, STAY SAFE, LIVE FOR TODAY, LOOK TO THE FUTURE AND REMEMBER, THE PAST IS YESTERDAY AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE IT. BESIDE, IN 1968 THE GUYS IN THE STATION WERE SAYING THE SAME THING, ALL THIS NEW FANCY GEAR, EQUIPMENT AND ETC. THE OLD STUFF WORKED FINE.

Tillermn14

05-08-1999, 07:27 PM

I have only been a firefighter for 5 years, but have been hanging around the firehouse my whole life. I can remember as a child the fire engine going down the street with firefighters on the tailboard. I have often wondered what it would be like to ride the tailboard. I have heard older members tell stories about riding the board. I have also wondered about what it would be like to to wear a tailcoat and 3/4 boots. Maybe we should bring back open cabs, I never got to ride in one of them.

[This message has been edited by Tillermn14 (edited May 08, 1999).]

Aff

05-09-1999, 03:12 PM

...ride the board agian? Nope, never did, never will, chicken. Besides, if you fall off the truck, you can't have any real fun! http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gifBE SAFE...

sgt128

05-10-1999, 06:36 PM

I'd be interested in knowing if any departments still ride the boards.
I know that I had the chance to a while ago going down a mile long driveway on another engine, and I took it, pretty neat, but I just kept thinking about all of the people who were killed that way.
I only rode down because my engine wouldn't fit, and this engine had two seats only, and my crew hopped under the hose cover, as I jumped on the back step.

721

05-10-1999, 11:12 PM

I started in the late 70's, and thought that the tailboard was a gas. One hell of a ride, and it got one pumped up for what ever faced them at the scene.

Not long before it bacame the thing not to do, I had a ride that told me I really need to get in the cab, or take my own POV to the call. Had a mutual-aid call to a large industral fire on the other side of the county. The tanker we had at the time was geared so it would really get up and run with the big dogs on the open road, and after a 15 mile ride on the interstate at 75MPH+ I decided this wern't really too smart a place to be. Besides that the tanker, a 1974 Chevy C65 with 1200 gal of water was so tall that the hand rail was a good foot over my head, and I'm 6'1".

That was my last ride on the tailboard while responding to a call, and it was my choice.

Now our newest truck doesn't even have a tail board. We spec'ed the truck out with a rear pump panel, to keep the truck as short as possible to navigate the narrow mountain roads in parts of our district. Moving the pump panel to the rear provides a great deal of compartments space on a small truck.

Grambo

05-13-1999, 12:08 AM

Yes, Those were the good ole days. I still get a hankering to stand up in the side pocket every now and then. They have taken a lot of the fun out of firefighting. Sometimes I think, they think, only of the Liabilities. But I think when someones life is in danger, liabilities should take a back seat. I knew this job was dangerous when I took it. Saftey has come a long way during the years though. You can't save someone's life if you don't have your own. So I do have to agree with the others. Even though they have taken most of the fun out of it. Stay with it. It is a very rewarding life

nbfd131

06-03-1999, 05:18 AM

I've been a firefighter for 5 years now and I don't think I would want to ride the beaver board the way some people drive these days. Add to that the fact that it is cold and snowy in the winter and hot and muggy in the summer and you get my point.
Gregg

06-14-1999, 12:39 AM

This makes it 30 years for me. I sure don't miss the board on the quad when it crossed the railroad track. It was kind of like a catapult. It did save some time when pulling
a supply line while laying in straight.

Dalmation90

06-14-1999, 08:40 PM

Ride the boards?...heck we haven't even been allowed to ride them in parades since 1989...tried to convince the Chief to let the crew for the back step drive down in POV to the parade (Engine only sat 2) then only ride for the parade route...and got a positively firm NO.

I am fortunate as I am probably the youngest of the last generation that will ever have ridden the boards, and even at that when I joined in 1987 they where on the way out very quickly -- most drivers refused to let you ride there when they were driving. I think I managed once...and that was when we had a call while out selling tickets to our chicken BBQ...and it was a hoot, and at the same time, I sincerely hope I never do it again!

Besides, our trucks are tall, and you get to see more from the jump seats than you would from the steps http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/smile.gif Exhilaration = seeing the loom up in the sky from the jump seat when you turn the corner, and you're still 15 miles away from the mill fire!

Now onto gear...I do have a feeling we will see over the next 20 years continued development of lighter weight bunkers that still have thermal and cut protection.

A neighboring department had the first "summer" fire a few weeks ago, and sent 4 firefighters to the hospital for a checkup for heat exhaustion. Talking to one of the older members a few days later, as he said, they hopefully learned that if you take breaks, you get to fight more fire...don't take breaks, you end up stuck in rehab forever or being trucked to the hospital.

iwood51

06-15-1999, 11:57 AM

Been doing this since 1984, still remember riding both the tailboard and the center mount pump panel. It was great in the summer, sucked in the winter. Still recall one time responding to a structure fire with a couple too many guys on the pump panel, going around a corner and losing one guy off the side. His SCBA bottle flew out behind his head, and the rear wheels of the truck missed him by inches. He is fine and still active (an ex-captain) but that incident started the ball rolling for our department. First was a maximum man-power per truck, then came no back step, then came the enclosed cabs. We still have firefighters riding on the back of our brush trucks, but they are in a semi-enclosed roll-cage (who said we were animals?) and there is an SOP of 30 mph for these vehicles on road (off road you won't even get to that speed).

Herb King

06-15-1999, 07:56 PM

Rode my first tailboard in 1965, along with the open cab, Chemox "air packs", rubber suits, orange gloves and all the other horrors from firefighter "good times". Of course they were only good times when talking about them many years later. It was cold, hot, dusty, wet, choking and dangerous. Hopefully is wasn't NFPA 1500 that changed your departments standards but common sense and a will to live from the lowly firefighters that changed the safety standards. As an AC responsible for procuring the PPE for our department I have always placed safety as the main spec for any gear.
I hope that other newbies dont have knee surgery from banged couplings on tailboards, steam burns from the non-breathing gear, burn scars on necks from the old tin pan hats, sore hand joints from burns with orange rubber gloves, annual lung x-rays due to ARFF asbestos gear or head pain from non-impact helmets like I have.
I also hope that the new injuries we encounter from "safer" PPE will also be changer by the firefighters who have long life and fewer injuries as their goal.

jrchief

06-24-1999, 10:04 PM

I would personally would like to ride the tailboard just to say I had. The only thing that might prevent me from trying is that I have heard of many people falling off and having to run to the call. I have even heard stories about the fire fighters shoving their hands under the hose and falling asleep on the ride back to the fire station. The simple thing is I wasn't in the fire service when they did ride tailboard. I wasn't even ten years old. I think that it would be interesting thing to do but the simple fact is that it is verry dangerous and definitly not safe.

[This message has been edited by jrchief (edited June 24, 1999).]

TKirk

08-05-1999, 02:55 AM

Ahh...the memories. The tailboard should have been a ride at an amusement park. A great adrenaline rush. We had a military 6x6 with a home built tailboard that was almost as high as the bed. Railroad tracks were really something. Reality set in when we had a FF get thrown off. Thankfully he was only bruised. I love the memories, but I'm glad thats all they are. As far as the Red rubber/plastic gloves go none of the memories are good. I do still have one to remind me of the "good old days", it's mate melted on my hand.

Bob Snyder

08-09-1999, 01:23 PM

Riding the tailboard was a blast to, from, and during parades, to and from drills/training, and times like that. It was never great when running emergency speed, though. Overall, we've made a lot of advances in safety in the 16 years since I first jumped on a fire truck, and we're much better off for them.

Would I personally like to ease up once in a while on a drill night and jump on the tailboard? Yea. Could I get away with it every once in a while? Probably. Can I justify it, since I'm supposed to be setting an example for the younger crew members? Nope. Some things are just better left to the "good old days".

firepros

08-11-1999, 12:05 PM

To Truck110 and the others who believe in modern smart safety AMEN.

Can anyone explain what we did better or more efficient by riding the tailboards or in open cabs. I currently work in MI and grew up in the fire service in WI. It was really fun when it's -20 outside riding the tailboard (1979) and having to peel your orange plastic gloves off the handrail. Driving an open cab was even more fun, why when it rained we had a wiper inside and out to wipe away the water coming in the open roof...........duh? We just got smarter all of a sudden (too late for a lot of fathers who did not come home from work...) when in 1986 NFPA 1500 came out and killed a lot of "dinosaurs". Since this earthshaking standard and it's regular upgrades we have seen a drastic DECLINE in FF's deaths and injuries. Oh darn, we can't say we're the most dangerous profession no more....................... AMEN

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Ted J. Pagels, Fire Chief, Menominee, MI 49858

ff emt-p bleve

09-25-1999, 07:14 PM

life is nothing but change and sometimes the the good days are dearly missed.The fire service is no different.I got to ride the tailboard a few times prior to a policy change in 1980.The new recuits just missed out and many others loss out. Traffic has increased on all roads rural or city.Truck design has change. The 52 ford in 1979 that my rural department was using first Out, done well to set two, the tailboard was a must.Todays huge cabs change the need for firefighters to hang all over the engine.
HEY WE STILL HAVE PARADES.

[This message has been edited by ff emt-p bleve (edited September 25, 1999).]

BLEVE

09-26-1999, 07:48 PM

Let me make this short and sweet....NO...Why ride on the board when its safer in a seat with a seat belt.

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If a Firefighter can't do it....it can't be done

AFFF

09-26-1999, 10:17 PM

Well I have to say as far as safety I think these are good ideas as far as the new gear and no rear step riding. All though I read somewhere in the postes that some of you think they are going to far. Well I think we are going to far but I wish to know some stats. If someone could furnish me with the number firefighter deaths in 1974 and we will say 20 years later for 1994 also give me if it able to found the firefighter injuries and post them on this page. Which will be higher in 1994 than in 1974 deathes or injuries. I have been told deathes are increasing now verses in the past and injuries are lowering now verses the past. Now my question is this are our deathes being caused by accidents that in the past would have been injury accidents or events that years ago would have not even injured some one?

I am not arguing the fact that we are moving in the way of being safer in the present but at the sametime are possibly becoming more and more in danger by what we are doing.

PASS devices are good nomex,PBI and so on are good, but is it good to totally inclosed? Are we getting in hotter fires than we were in the past? In a lot of places are we trained enough to do the job that we are trying to do. The last statement is do to station hopping and seeing a lot of places that are not being trained the way they should be to do the job in the present.

Well need to go before I get in deeper than I am already am. By the way I have 13 years in the service and have rode on the step, in the open cabs and worn some of the gear that the other postes talk about and it is no picnic but it is a lot of fun in some cases.

STAY SAFE EVRYTIME YOU GO OUT DO NOT FORGET MURPHY.

robert h. fields

09-27-1999, 01:31 AM

Some tradition must carry on. While some tradition must die. When I began my career in the fire service 12 yrs ago, my vol dept still rode tailboards. I rode to my first working structure on a tailboard. What a rush!!! Now, 12 yrs later on my full time dept. tailboards are all but a memory. The 2nd leading cause of LOD deaths for ff is responding to and returning from alarms. Although I agree some rules, standards and/or guidelines are debatable, this one has been put forth for a reason! Fully enclosed cab w/jumpseats are the safest way for us to get there! If we ignore our own safety, we no longer are assets but we become liabilities!

FF/EMT-P569

10-04-1999, 12:15 AM

I'd love to ride the tailboard again...or would I? As an officer the last thing that is asked before the rig rolls out of the bay is, "Everybody in, sittin' down and seatbelted?" And I mean it! We've had two unfortunate, lost time accidents in our department in the last ten years because a firefighter has fallen out of an enclosed cab! I want all of my sister and brother firefighters to enjoy long lives. Just as the chauffeur's job is to get us all to and from the fire safely it's my job as a line officer to see to MY crews safety. I don't want to have any of my crew riding the hose bed because they were riding the tailboard.

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Lt. Bill Mattson, LEMT-P

Romania

10-07-1999, 01:17 AM

Heck no, I don't even like to be looking forward on the way to calls. I prefer to be seated backwards so that I can't be a witness.

My turnouts aren't that heavy, either is my new MSA scba. On grass fires we have wildland protective clothing. I don't want any of that smoke from a car fire in my lungs... I rather wear my full PPE and SCBA adn have to shower ans change at the station later. Just like I wear my safety glasses on just about every EMS call, and my gloves on every call. It's a matter priorities. I don't have any children yet, but I want to be around for a while when I do. This is a dangerous job, we risk our lives every day responding to, operating at, and returning from alarms of all kinds. If it's safer for us to operatin in heavier protective clothing, I'll just have to work out more! Besides, my new turnouts are light and so is my SCBA.

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Alan Romania, CEP
romania@uswest.net

DED1645

10-09-1999, 09:18 AM

Well in reguards to this topic i never road to a job on the boards. When I started in the service all of our apparatus had personal cabs. But once during a drill I was standind on the rear board and hit a bump and it tossed me off. DAMN it hurt when I hit the street. And we were only going about 20 mph. Granted we didn't have the straps to hold you if yout feet did slip. The major concern is safety here. There are more vehicle on the roads today and that means more people not paying attention. Enough brothers get killed in enclosed cabs let alone in standing on boards of apparatus. Don't mean to spoil the fun, but evryone is concerned w/ donning your gear properly and always wear a hood,wear a pack, etc... It's no good if you don't reach the job safely. This is another subject that opinions will greatly vary. Stay safe.

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David DeCant
firefighter/NREMT-B
Mantua,NJ

11-23-1999, 06:33 PM

Thanks for so many great responses so far, I hope that more people read this. I am surely not against safety and I have never lost time in the 14 years I have been in the Fire Service for an otj injury. I do like to think of some of the old times which we are in the process of making today, hell I would have liked to have been able to hook a horse up and breathe thru my beard. Anyway, stay safe and now really all of you NFPA horn blowers, you know you would like to try the board if no one else was looking.

Lieutenant Gonzo

12-07-1999, 10:56 AM

I have to agree with Truck 110, the old days seem like they were a lot simpler, but so was life the jurassic period, Nothing to do but eat, sleep and avoid getting eaten by Tyrannosaurus Rex! The biggest problems we face besides the fires are the lackadaisical attitudes towards safety and liabilities (look at all the personal injury lawyers advertising on TV...don't think that you are immune from a lawsuit because you are in the public safety profession!!!)

There are still some of the dinosaurs in the fire service who would like to return to ride the tailboard, bitch about having to wear scba, full turnouts and Nomex hoods, wear seat belts in the apparatus and actually deal with the public. (PS: not all of the dinosaurs are old!)

As far as SCBA and turnouts, I want to stay around for a while, so I wear them. I would rather be uncomfortable for a few minutes going to an alarm activation than being burned/hurt or worse forever. God did not intend for our ears to be used as thermometers, so I wear my hood. The most important thing we can do is keep abreast of new technology, training and watch what's going on around us.

Be safe...Lt. Gonzo

05-20-2000, 11:06 AM

Lets kick this around again for some of the new members. Stay Safe.

dtj

05-20-2000, 01:20 PM

Fightin' fire for 26 years. Rode the tailboard or open jump seat until middle 1980's. Second run engine still has open jump seat, but first run has the enclosed cab. We still have one engine in service with a board. I like the open air and view, but for safety I'd have to go with enclosed cabs and seat belts. There are alarms, i.e., field and brush fires, where
firefighters ride the board while on scene, but not en route.

I do think the fire service is becoming encumbered with too many rules in lieu of common sense and good supervision.

Ed Shanks

05-20-2000, 11:32 PM

Count me as another who remembers riding the tailboard. In the winter we flipped the canvas covering the hosebed up over our hands and ducked down below hosebed level so we wouldn't freeze. We had straps that went around the chest, that could be released after you got your gear on, so you didn't fall off when getting into your jacket and boots.

IMO, enclosed cabs are a GREAT improvement!!
Comfort-wise as well as safety-wise.

Funny, when we had demand masks, we could wear beards. Now, with positive pressure masks, we aren't allowed.

But to Truck 110, who wrote:
>>
SCBA's: They were Demand Style, so they did not Force Air into your Lungs when you were Unconscious..
<<
I have to say, "HUH???" The demand style were easier to breathe with, IMO. I've worn both styles. Never had either style force air into my lungs.

Look, the old days were fun, at times. But I don't miss coughing black phlegm out of my lungs for 2 days after a fire - which we did unless we wore airpacks. I don't miss having those red rubber Fireball gloves melt (I used to wear cotton gloves under mine!) There's a lot I don't miss. Wearing structural firefighting gear at a grass fire is asking for a heat stroke, but firefighters had heat strokes before those regulations came along. I came close to passing out at a grass fire while wearing a tank top, shorts and 3/4 boots, with an Indian Tank on my back. I should have stopped and gotten a drink, but didn't. I learned from that. Now that I'm older (and fatter) than I was in 1982, I take time to re-hydrate myself. The fire will still be there, and it won't move all that much in the minute it takes to suck down some water.

My main gripe with the way things are today is that manpower is a mere shade of what it used to be. That's the most unsafe of all the "progress" the fire service has seen in the last several decades.

------------------
E-4-A
IAFF 1176
RKMC MAL

[This message has been edited by Ed Shanks (edited May 20, 2000).]

Ed Shanks

05-20-2000, 11:48 PM

Firepros asks:
>>
Can anyone explain what we did better or more efficient by riding the tailboards or in open cabs.
<<

OK, here's one answer: We got more firefighters to the scene with the engine. Nowadays we have 3 or 4 in most engines when it arrives on scene. In some cases, only two or even one! When there were enough firefighters to man the tailboard, there would be two at least in the cab, but you could put another 3 or 4 on the tail. Now, who wouldn't like to roll up on a house fire with 6 firefighters ready for action?

Now, as for the open cab - I never saw the logic in that!

------------------
E-4-A
IAFF 1176
RKMC MAL

[This message has been edited by Ed Shanks (edited May 20, 2000).]

BFD251

05-21-2000, 02:42 AM

Well here is my 2 cents worth I started out in 1989 and my dept allowed us to ride the board...but that changed shortly, I think my last ride was in 91...to be honest with everyone I miss it at times but am also thankful for that big cab....so i guess now if we want to ride the board it will have to be in a parade......

Lieutenant Gonzo

05-21-2000, 11:59 AM

I am an 18 year veteran of the fire service, the last 12 as an officer and when I read the initial posts and replies on this thread, I had to put in my 2 cents worth...

I rode the tailboard just once in my career...the experience scared the crap out of me...the first thing I did after I got off the rig was to do what the Pope does and kissed the ground! Those jakes who long for the days of riding the tailboard have forgotten Newton's laws of physics!

Are we overprotecting ourselves? I think that we aren't doing enough! We all like to talk about fitness standards, our safety in the station and on the fireground and push for our administrations to implement our suggestions, but when it comes time to practice what we preach, we do a 180!

There are firefighters that are not physically fit, smoke like the proverbial chimney, graze on fat laden and unhealthy foods all day and wonder why they feel lousy, have no energy or can't do the job like they did years ago. There are the dinosaurs who feel that training is boring. These are the same dinosaurs that want to pull booster lines on car and house fires, don't want to wear SCBA when they are outside (ie, car fires, dumpster fires) and refuse to wear hoods because they want to use their ears as thermometers. They beleive that because they have "been there, done that" and haven't gotten hurt in the past it won't happen to them now!

We should all be issued wildland firefighting gear to wear at brush fires...structural turnouts were not designed for this environment! It could be kept in a bag on the rig and donned as soon as we get to the scene.

You don't see too many retired jakes living long after retiring...years of breathing in smoke and blowing black snot out of your nose for days after a fire may have been "macho"...but it has taken it's toll. Back then, wearing SCBA was for "pussies". Retired firefighters are dying of cancer, emphesyma and heart attacks.

In the tailboard days, all we did was fight fires. Today, we still fight fires...except that they don't get as much of a head start like they used to, thanks to smoke detectors and fire alarm systems. We have to be current in the disciplines and techniques of EMS, hazmat, technical rescue, water rescue and God knows what else, because when the crap hits the fan and the experts panic, who are they gonna call....it's not Ghostbusters...it's us!

Training, physical fitness, eating healthy and wearing the appropriate PPE at incidents and wearing our seatbelts when riding on the rigs will increase our chances of having a long and safe career and living long enough to enjoy retirement! http://www.firehouse.com/interactive/boards/cool.gif

------------------
We boldly go where no one else dares...
take care and stay safe
Lt. Gonzo

Ray R

05-21-2000, 03:37 PM

Having been an "active" firefighter since 1962, I would not like to go back to having people on the tailboard. I do miss telling the rookies "Don't worry about riding on the tailboard. I drive according to your confort level. I determine your comfort level by watching you in the mirror and observing the size of your eyes and whiteness of your knuckles. If either seems excessive, I will slow down 1-2 mph."

How many rember the CHEMOX masks or how they operated?

------------------

fireresc32

05-25-2000, 11:27 PM

Yea right.....Tailboards should not be ridden. In the state fo Maryland some engines have been grandfathered in and you are allowd to ride tail boards. I have and didnt like it at all. When im responding to a fire i want the ability to put my gear on in a safe manor. On the board you have to worry about what you will loose enroute. There were many times id show up on scene and get off the engine and have to borrow a helmet or a pair of gloves because there out on the road by the railroad track crossing. I think they are dangerous and not worth the risk. In this buisness we take enough risks already.

Davidjb

05-26-2000, 03:34 PM

It's been my experience that the only people that believe we should still be allowed to ride the tailboard are the people that have never done it. I did it for 2 years and let me tell you if I never have to do it again I'll be a happy man.

------------------
David Brooks, Firefighter, D/O, 1st Resp.
Newmarket Fire & Rescue
Newmarket, New Hampshire

SLIM6

05-27-2000, 08:02 AM

Riding the tailboard was something that i use to think would be fun, but considering the many risks that are involved in firefighting i think that it is our duty to lessen those risks by eliminating those that are not worth taking. Our company saw the risk involved and prohibited tailboard riding before NFPA recommended it.

mtnfireguy

05-27-2000, 01:08 PM

Well I have my feelings on this issue, but Truck 110 and Lt Gonzo pretty well summed it up.

Sure some of the new standards seem silly, but remember why most of em were created - because we did something stupid.

Our safety has to be the #1 priority.

E229Lt

05-29-2000, 09:02 PM

20 years ago the basic middle class furnished livingroom generated about 10% the BTUs of todays plastic factories. Throw in thermal windows and R-40 insulation and the oven is lit.
When I came on, most good jobs had flames waving out the windows to welcome us on the scene. Not anymore. We're lucky if we smell it much less see it.
Once inside the fire compartment we are now dealing with unvented, superheated, petroleum based fires. If I wore a TC-2 Coat today I'd be a fool. 3/4 boots? No thanks. Demand regulator? Not on your life. No hood? And spoil my good looks?
The only thing I miss from my early days are some of the basics that seem to have been lost.
As for riding the back step. If you want to ride the back of the truck, be a garbage man.

E229Lt

05-29-2000, 10:11 PM

Ray R.
Pull off the strip and don't touch the hot can.

Luit. Jason Karvelat

05-30-2000, 01:10 AM

Let it fly T-110!!!!!! I've only been in the service for three years and in classes I've taken saftey is PREACHED AND PREACHED. I must admit I would like to ride the board just one time to a call just to say I got to do it. BE SAFE ALL

Joseph Mowery

05-30-2000, 12:06 PM

What, ride a tailboard. I have only been a civilian FF for 3 1/2 years. We have two engines with open jumb seats, they are nice in the spring and fall but I like the enclosed cabs. The heat in the winter time when returning from a fire wet with sweat. I also like the AC in the summer when it is 95+ with 99% humidity. Call me what you will but at least I try to be comfortable doing it.

TechEdFireman

06-01-2000, 06:58 PM

I have to agree with Luit. Jason Karvelat
I'd like to try it but to say I did it but other than that I would have to say I still like the cab and the seats compared to standing on the boards. Plus all the things we have been taught over the last few years about safety safety safety...

Take Care,
Nick

------------------
What you call being a hero.
I call doing my job.
--FireFighting--

FFD#60

06-01-2000, 07:01 PM

Agree with truck110 completely. I can't even possibly begin to understand why we would want to go backwards instead of forwards. Look at all the recent firefighter deaths. Says it all for me. Just think of how many it could be if we didn't update our standards?!

LadMike

06-01-2000, 10:45 PM

Let's see.....

Did I enjoy hanging on the back step during 10 degree weather wearing rubberized gloves ?
Nah...
Did I like riding in the "main" (facing the tiller cage) during a winter rain storm ?
Nah...
Did I like the wind blowing into the jump seat right up my running coat when, no matter what you tried to do to prevent it, you froze your butt off (not what I really had in mind)?
Nah...
I kinda like enclosed cabs. Must be getting old...

Mike

mesha

06-02-2000, 09:06 PM

The past is just that and I for one am glad of the changes over the years in the fire service. The Sh!t we have to deal with today is definitely more hazardous to our health than it ever was in the "old days", or at least that is how I feel anyhow. Improvements in fire fighting techniques and technologies provide for us the ways and means to combat all these new hazards that we see everyday. And this goes without saying then that riding the "rail" or the back is a thing of the past and should stay there. Besides, at -40, I kinda like being warm.
Tim Bennett
Walden Fire Department
Ontario, Canada

Brian Dunlap

06-05-2000, 03:28 AM

I have to agree with Truck 110 also...I started in the Fire Service in 1988 when riding the tail board and wearing the 3/4 lenth Hip Boots was an accepted practice...Looking back I'M Glad the fire service has come as far as it has..Yeah I miss the back step sometimes and yet I donn't miss it when you think about the potential for injury and falling off the step...I sit around the hall now and listen to the stories from the "Old-Timers" and the not so "Old-Timers" and wonder how some of these guys made it to 2000.

09-20-2000, 07:33 AM

Lets hear from more of you.

ENGINE18-3

09-20-2000, 12:31 PM

Would I like to ride tail board to a fire call? Yes probably only because I want to have that expirience at least once. Joining in 98 kinda killed that, because of me being way too young for the fire service when it was allowable. Even so I have ridden tailboard for parades and on the 4th of July when we give all the kids fire engine rides on the hose bed. But I did grow up at the Firehouse so I have memories of my Dad and the guys looking like gods as they rode out of the engine room on the back of the truck. Anyway I've got this great picture from a drill we had and we were repacking the hose bed I was up on the bed facing the back and I noticed 2 guys who never rode the tail to a call and my Dad on the board. My Dad look likes the pro one arm on the hand rail the other draped over the ladder on the side of the engine, and these 2 guys both holding on for dear life! But riding the tail board became one of the legends of the fire service just like horse drawn apparatus and Ahrens-Foxes.

------------------
The statements above are my own opinions

FF Greg Grudzinski
Oaklyn Fire Dept.
Station 18-3

FFTrainer

09-20-2000, 12:34 PM

Not really!! I like riding inside where I can hear radio transmissions and get my pack on before I get on the job.

It's nice every now and then on community service functions like Fire Prevention at the local schools, but it's just not the safest thing to do regularly if at all.

fc80chief

09-20-2000, 06:56 PM

I have ridden the back steps in my younger days I have to say this - It was nice. But the nice feeling that it generated did not outweigh the risk that it involved. I was on the back step one evening when one of our guys fell off and it was not a nice thing to experience. If this post or any of the previous posts have not convinced you that this is a very dangerous practice then ask yourself this question and answer it honestly.

Why should I let this job more dangerous than it has to be?

I guarantee that you will not come up with a good answer.

Drewbo

09-20-2000, 07:07 PM

I saw this and I had to chime in. I joined the Fire service in 1996, I was 18. I though did get the change to ride the tailboard, NOT IN Elizabethtown, we are safe and modern. But in a PA college town, that belives there is a grandfather clause, that I volunteered in while attending school. Although I argued that there IS NO grandfather clause, I never refused to ride the tail of a '71 open air Hahn.
Although I knew it was wrong, it was the most awesome thing. I will be able to tell my grandkids about it someday. When they are firefighters and I am the strange old man.

P.S. Please don't comment and try to tell me it is unsafe or wrong, I already know, still I think I am the youngest fireman who has rode a tailboard to a fire.

------------------
*************************
* God Looked down and
* saw this was bad, it
* was bad, it was Drew
*************************

12-06-2001, 06:28 PM

Hi gents and ladies, just thought I'd bring it to the top again. Stay Safe.

dmleblanc

12-06-2001, 10:00 PM

Have ridden the tailboard on RARE occasions such as fundraisers, parades, etc. (maybe 5 times). It was a kick but very different doing parade speed vs. flying down the road to a call. All in all I think we're better off in the cab. I got into the fire service in '89 and riding the tailboard was pretty much over by that time. Funny, though, some of the IFSTA manuals and training videos we've been using up until just a very few years ago still show FF's riding the tailboards. My ex-chief has some nice bridgework in his mouth from getting about half of his teeth knocked out by a coupling coming off the hose bed while laying a supply line (one of those big old brass couplings, mind you...). Enough reason right there to stay off the board. Anyway, thanks to Ed for reviving this string....Love to hear those old war stories.....

SquadHog

12-06-2001, 10:57 PM

We called it the back step, not the tailboard but anyway...rode one for years and loved every minute, even soaking wet in the freezing ass cold. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> What's the big deal? Just hang on keep a little bend in your knees. Hell yeah, I'd go back to it in a heartbeat.<br />Warning: The following may be too intense for safety geeks. We used to keep our Scotts up in the hose bed and put them on going down the street too. 3/4 boots? More like 3/8's...we rarely pulled 'em up. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/jurassic.gif<br />You kids today. http://www.stopstart.btinternet.co.uk/sm/gaga.gif

firemangeorge

12-06-2001, 11:51 PM

Only five years in, so I've never ridden there on a run, but we usually get up there the first few weeks of pluggin'(checking hydrants) in the fall. Always feels really great. Of course it wears off pretty quick when the temp drops and wind chill kicks in. I'll be in the cab. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

gunnyv

12-07-2001, 08:54 AM

I rode the back step for a year and a half-on a garbage truck! We drove like we were responding to emergencies though. It was fun, when it was warm and dry, and I was 20 yrs old. The only time anyone at our dept. rides the tailboard is backing up to load supply line, at 3 mph and with 2 backup guides! We still have two older (86 & 88) engines with open jump seats, I can't wait for them to go so I can stay warm and dry going back and forth to EMS calls.

091101

12-07-2001, 09:29 AM

Ahhhhh, yes - the Back Step. One of the most fun, and most dangerous things to do. Yeah it was a blast racing down the road, half yer gear slung on, half piled up on the step. We'd each take turns getting dressed, one guy would reach around the other and grab the rail so the 2nd guy could let go and gear up with both hands, then vice versa.

Man, that was dumb. One slip and then... Just isn't worth the risk anymore.

What Truck110 said is dead on correct. Bravo!

SilverCity4

12-07-2001, 09:36 AM

Uh, no. We've got drivers that make me nervous enough as it is.

bjhfd

12-07-2001, 09:46 AM

I think the back step might look good for slow moving parades and stuff, but not going to a call. A few times I have been on the truck when a "close call" has happened, usually on black ice. If it weren't for being seated and seat belted, I would have probably been thrown from the truck when it fish tailed. Now imagine fish tailing on black ice while holding onto the rails.

51Truck_K

12-07-2001, 10:10 AM

You wana ride the back step.....become a Garbage man.

DPFDLT

01-22-2003, 06:41 PM

Been a while since we looked at this one. How bout freezing to the pole in this cold?

truck6alpha

01-22-2003, 06:48 PM

You dug deep in the archive to find this one. I had to go back and look again when I realized what the dates of the first posts were. Wow.

All I can say is that as much as I miss riding the boards, I sure won't miss it tonight- supposed to get down below freezing where we are.

FFTrainer

01-23-2003, 10:04 AM

All I can say is that as much as I miss riding the boards, I sure won't miss it tonight- supposed to get down below freezing where we are.

Must be nice to be in SC and get below freezing since it's supposed to get below ZERO in my neck of the woods tonight!! Needless to say we are praying for a quiet night of staying in quarters - although I know I just jinxed that ;)

But back to the subject of the thread.... Do I miss it? Not a chance. And as a reminder of why, all you have to do is go to the Firehouse main page and read the LODD in San Francisco and you will be reminded of the consequences of falling from a moving piece of apparatus. I realize that this FF was not on a tailboard but rather in an open jump seat but why increase your odds of being separated from you apparatus by riding the board. Chances are the next board you may ride after that is a backboard if not worse!

Stay Safe!

cozmosis

01-23-2003, 11:07 AM

I only have three years in the service, so no time on the tailboard for me... But we do still have a rig with open jump seats and that's enough of a thrill for me.

There is something appealing about riding backwards with the wind blowing by you, the street just a foot or so away and the sirens blaring. Okay, so its only appealing when its 72 and sunny. :-) Guess you'll have to count me among those happy to be in the cab most times.

raven911

01-23-2003, 02:41 PM

I guess I'll throw my two cents in on this ancient thread. We still have a few old tankers with rear mounted pump panels and pump and roll capability we use for brush fires. The operator has to belt on and stand on the back step to run the booster line. But remember, this is off-road brush fire use only and at speeds no greater than around 10 mph. They would never be used on the open road. And they are only used in this manner when making a mobile direct attack on a running wild fire. I guess that is the closest we will ever get as these apparatus are slowly being phased out.

By the way - Where are all these truly crustworthy originators of this thread? Where did they all go?

sklump

01-23-2003, 07:40 PM

I agree it was a hoot, but I was young and foolish. And I do remember when SEX WAS SAFE AND FIREFIGHTING WAS DANGEROUS!!!

flathead

01-24-2003, 08:02 AM

Let's see -28F this am. Yeah, just where I'd want to be. In the summer you could tell a happy ff by counting the # of mosquitos in his teeth. :D

PFDEngine4

01-25-2003, 04:30 PM

Yes it is dangerous.
And yes you cant do it anymore.

But I thought it was fun. (its been a long time though)
There were some draw backs, especially in the winter with the melting salt covered roads. You would get back to the station covered in road salt.
Also there were the railroad crossings would speed your heart up a bit.
Then there was the squeel of tires behind you when some idiot wasnt paying attention.
And then there was the time we ran into some concrete baricades that a contractor had placed on a road consturction site that was a bit to narrow for the engine.

Did I say it was fun ?

Well it was fun at the time, I think.

gordoffemt

01-25-2003, 07:02 PM

That tailboard ridin' looks fun but I'll bet it's not all it's cracked up to be. How many times have you had to slam on the brakes for somebody while making a response? There'd be a lot of FF's with teeth missing.

If we were still allowed riding back there, we would probably have to tie off to the truck with some sort of safety belt. What's the lesser of 2 evils in a roll-over. You wanna ride it out tied to the truck or be thrown like a wet rag? I'll keep my seat, belted in the cab, thank you very much.

jce51cfd

01-25-2003, 08:23 PM

Been around since 1978.

I miss the back step alot.

Memories are forever but safety comes first.

38R1-theprobe

01-26-2003, 10:17 AM

We have 2 trucks that still have rear open jump seats, the first real fire call i went on was on one of those engines in the back. I loved it because the wind kept you cool and the truck has a old detroit that would be roaring and that great Q siren blaring and the air horns screaming, really gets your adrenalin going. Cant even imagine riding the tail board, we have a hydolic hose reel on this truck so we still have to ride the tailboard to use controls but only at like 4-5 mph.

truck6alpha

01-27-2003, 11:01 AM

Yeah- fftrainer, you're so right- but I'm not saying we should go back to riding them again. I'm just saying that I miss it, not that I'm advocating it. Kinda like riding a motorcycle without a helmet- there's nothing like it, feeling the wind in your face and all. But work a few motorcycle trauma calls and it reminds you why you wear the brain bucket after all. Not everything that is fun is very safe unfortunately.

I get it all out of my system skiing and off-road biking instead.

Lewiston2Capt

01-27-2003, 12:28 PM

If I wanna feel the wind through my hair I think I will eat a York peppermint patty. After the weather we have had for the past couple of weeks, No thank you, I will stay off the back step. Hell, I dont even like riding in the open cab of our engine.

ChiefReason

01-27-2003, 01:32 PM

I got on in 1980. Got to ride the tailboard for a while. Also got to wear a "rubber" firecoat, rubber boots that came up to my hips and a helmet that was made from the same material that dinner plates were made from back in the early 60s. My first SCBA was a 15 minute that hung on my side. No 1-3/4 inch pre-cons. NO ONE was attacking with 2-1/2 inch in rural America. Interior attacks were made with fog patterns. No RIT. Reel hoses were used most of the time back then. There were no studies being done about the effects of heat stress on a firefighter. Accidents involving POVs while enroute were few and far between. Much of the equipment has changed and so have many of the dynamics. What hasn't changed is that people are still dying.
Physical fitness has become a focus, but then you read about a firefighter dying while doing exercises or just after exercises. Turnout gear is more advanced than ever before. It is keeping us from getting burnt, but is also keeping body heat in. Core temperatures in firefighters coming out of dwellings have been measured at over 106 degrees. That isn't healthy. SCBAs are letting us stay in longer. Is that good for us?
I don't know about safer. Maybe the risks have just moved one door over. Training is the key that will open this door and if we know the limitations, then we can plan for it.
But it was fun riding the board.
TC & SS.
CR

Bones42

01-27-2003, 02:12 PM

Became a member in 1982. But it was fun riding the board. Chief, it was a lot of fun back then doing all those "now considered wrong" things. Safer? I'll echo Chief Reason, almost everything has changed and improved, but FF are still dying.

TillerMan25

01-28-2003, 02:10 AM

I joined a department in Calvert County Md. in 1993 and Our Apparatus consisted of a 1977 Ford/E-one Pumper (C-series with the little bench behind the cab) and a 1985 E-one Hurricane canopy Cab pumper. Both of these Engines Rode 4 in the cab and everyone else rode...you guessed it...on the Back step. It was awesome, We rode that way until 1996 when we took delivery of our Pierce Lance 8 man fully-enclosed pumper. I would go back to the tailboard in a heartbeat. No BS with Seatblets, No BS with kicking your brothers in the face trying to get dressed in a cramped cab (Sorry, we don't stand outside the apparatus and get dressed here, it wastes time and slows response.) The Fire Service is leaning to the point where pretty soon, the Agressive Interior Attack will even be taken away. And gentlemen, when that time comes, I will hang up my leather. I did not join the Fire Service to have some safety fairy with more Colored Vests than years on the job tell me I have to sit and watch a structure burn to the ground because its "Too Dangerous to go inside." In my 11 years in the Fire Service, (11 in PG County, 6 in Calvert. Still in PG today) I have never felt more humiliated as a firefighter than the Evening I Rode the tailboard on Mutual Aid to one of the more "Progressive" counties that surround us. We arrive to find a well-known restaurant and Liquor store with a large volume of smoke issuing from the building. There are crews inside making an interior attack and they are making excellent headway on this fire. Well, Mr Progressive "I fight fires with an IFSTA book" BAttalion Chief arrives on Location and backs all crews out because the structure was unoccupied and there was no need to place Firefighters in any danger to save the structure (Which was very much salvageable.) Most people from Maryland can probably identify this county, especially Hwoods.

The Fire Service is getting soft.

Leather Forever!
Tiller Trucks Live!
Wooden Ladders for all!
Split-tails back in the Auxiliary!( just Kidding Ladies!)

other1

03-01-2004, 02:25 PM

If this has been pointed out already, I apologise. I didn't read all the the replies.
Ironically, the purchase of apparatus with enclosed cabs was not
motivated by a desire to reduce falls from apparatus. In the 1970s,
people were throwing rocks and bottles at fire trucks responding
through their neighborhoods. The enclosed cabs were requested by the
firefighter unions to protect members from "flying missiles."

hwoods

03-01-2004, 03:07 PM

pumper41

03-01-2004, 09:48 PM

Wow, what a fascinating thread, a 5 year time capsule in a way. Some of those early names, are they still with us under new names today? - Peter.

RescuHoppy7

03-01-2004, 10:02 PM

I've been doing this since Oct. 4, 1958, I've never been injured on the job, and more important, I've never gotten anyone else hurt. THAT IS IMPORTANT. If everyone goes thru their career without getting anyone else hurt, then we've solved the problem. Making the Fire Service safer has NOTHING to do with Kevlar, PBI, Pass Devices, Accountability, RIC Teams, and Thermal Imaging equipment. IT'S ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE!!! I can fight Fire SAFELY in 40 year old gear, using 50 year old equipment, and do better than a lot of people using our state of the art junk

In the words of Saturday night live "Damn you are grizzled" but seriously Harve very good point. Attitude is a huge problem all over the fire service.

0ptical42

03-01-2004, 10:11 PM

Holy Thread Resurrection Batman! :eek: When I saw the date on the first post my jaw dropped. Anyways, I have only been in the service for a couple of years and so was never able to ride on the tailboard. Nor have I ridden in an open cab since our last one was retired right when I joined. On the one hand I would have liked to have felt the thrill of riding the tailboard. But on the other, my department's district has it's fair share of overly agressive citizens who will cut off our apparatus and we have those citizens who are just general knuckleheads. We have had more than a few close calls and I'm sure it wouldn't have been fun to be on the tailboard then. A few years ago one of our engines ended up on its side trying to avoid a lady who cut them off on an icy day. I'm glad there weren't tailboard riders then.

I agree that there are some reglations that are a little too overly safety conscious, but I don't think this is one of them. Just look at the incident where the Pittsburgh FF fell off a tailboard last month.

Safety33

03-04-2004, 09:21 PM

Having been able to ride the board for several years, I do kind of miss it. However, as read every day more and more stories of fire apparatus and personnel getting struck, I am glad that it is required to have enclosed cabs.

NJFFSA16

03-05-2004, 08:18 AM

If you have ever had the experience of "catching" a 5" LDH coupling in the face...as it came past you on the back step.....you'd never want to ride it again. Yeah...it was exciting. And yeah, it was dangerous......ESPECIALLY when the driver's adrenaline kicked in.

NJFFSA16
Class of '68
'51 Ward La France
Rider-back step extraordinaire!

Rescue101

03-05-2004, 08:56 AM

I'm in agreement with my esteemed brother Harve. Firefighter safety has as much to do with attitude as it does equipment.As Chief of Safety for a staff of close to 100 I'll let you go play inside if I deem it safe.But I'm not going to endanger firefighters needlessly for a pile of unsprinklered sticks.I started in '68 under the afore mentioned "fringe" benefits.As I've stated on these forums before,contents might have changed but fire still does the same things it did 200 years ago although sometimes faster.With the "old" gear you couldn't go as deep or stay as long.With the new stuff you have higher heat stress injuries.I think it was well said that the Fire service shifts to meet new requirements and in doing so the "safety" issues shift as well.The mentality that's drummed into our youth from birth(Live on the edge,Do the Dew)certainly hasn't been a big help either.No more open cabs here and our first "apartment" house is due in mid summer.Been an interesting journey. T.C.

DPFDLT

11-27-2005, 07:23 AM

Hey how come no one is responding to my thread? :D Its been a while but I must admit that I am the originator of this one and I had to change my name because of an old computer software glitch years ago but the thread lives on. We get a new stream of FF's here every year so while we are thinking about how rich our brothers on Long Island are :eek: lets see who has some additional opinions on this tailboard thing and safety in general.

How have we done since 1999? Are we dying more of cardiac problems these days or are we just keeping better track? I know traumatic injuries are possible but is there an increase? What do you see as the "next" big thing that is killing us? Like the brother from Atlanta just said, "I mean obviously our job is very dangerous," he said. "However, I guess statistically I've got more of chance of being hurt in an automobile accident than i do on the job."

Stay safe.

gunnyv

11-27-2005, 09:08 AM

Answer to the original question: NO!

Although I didn't get into this job until 1992, and my job had canopy cabs with seatbelts, I'll bet I have more tailboard time than most. How? I spent 2 years on the back of a garbage truck. Some of the drivers I worked with drove faster and crazier than most apparatus operators I've seen. :eek:

I lost track of how many times I almost got crushed by idiot drivers who didn't notice that big, smelly truck in front of them, or how many times my driver took a turn at too high speed and almost threw me off. Not to mention getting soaked by rain and frozen by winter.

Why is it some people remember the good part so much more than the bad? Riding the back in the summer was nice at first, but after the wind, rain, cold, and danger I liked riding inside much more. We even have heat and A/C in there :D

NonSurfinCaFF

11-27-2005, 10:23 AM

Well this has to be one of the longest running posts but here goes...

I missed tail board by 1 year, I started with a volunteer department in 1992, I did however spend a fair amount of time riding in open jump seats, it was fun as many have mentioned when the weather was nice, however when its cold and wet the enclosed cab is great, its also alot harder to lose gear in an enclosed jump seat, I almost fell out of the open jump seat on a few occasions and over the years saw alot of people lose, gloves, helmets, face masks etc, luckily no FF actually fell off. The California Department of Forestry still has a fair number of brush engines with open seats on the back of the engine, I used to sort of envy them getting to ride in the open air, then I followed one of their engines for several hours at night to a fire in the mountains, I would occasionally wake up in my warm cab, listening to the stereo, maybe have a sip of coffee and look at those poor CDF guys trying to keep from freezing to death wrapped in their wildland gear, structure gear and anything else they could find to cover themselves with. We have commercial crew cab engines so I also like being able to reach back and smack the youngens when the get too frisky (don't make me pull over).

Sure there are a few things we may go a little overboard on when it comes to safety, but I figure most of the "rules" we have resulted from a dead firefighter, so there is probably a good reason for it.

I also agree that staffing is probably the area we have been the weakest in, people talk about heat stress and exertional injuries, well alot of that comes from 2 or 3 FF trying to do the job or 5 or 6. Even though eventually there may be just as many arriving on the fireground I think the fact they all arrive seperately causes a fair amount of duplicated effort so the work load is still higher than it would be with proper crews of 4-6.

ChiefReason

11-27-2005, 11:47 AM

Posted by Ed the Guest on 4/30/99:
I'm looking for some input and general discussion from some of the old timers as well as the thoughts of the newbies. It seems that since I began in the Fire service in 1984 things have really changed. When I started I got to ride the tailboard for a few months then this BIG safety standard NFPA 1500 came about and many things changed. I will agree some for the better but also some changed for reasons unknown to me. Now I haven't been around all that long but I am wondering if some of these standards are "SAVING" us to death. I.E. Heavy, hot fully encapsulated suits for all types of fires . We must wear Full turnouts to every type of fire. Are we going too far in some structures? Are we having heart attacks at car fires? Are we suffering heat stroke at grass fires?
Was it any different in the old days?
I had a cousin in Maryland that died while in the cab of a fire engine. This happened in 1963. If he was on the board I would be drinking a beer with him today. Are we too safe?
SCBAs that you slung over your shoulder and held about 8 minutes of air if you didn't breathe hard.
Coats that looked like aluminum foil and designed to "deflect" the heat away from you.
Gloves that would melt to your hands if they got hot enough.
Tailboards that could shred the skin off your shins.
No skull caps on the ladders.
Has the service become sissified?
Nope.
We've just gotten alot smarter.
Accept for that LODD thing.
Hey, Ed.
Don't tell johnboycan that I'm old enough to remember 15 minute SCBAs. In fact, I wore one.
He wants me and others like me euthanized.
So, don't tell him.
CR

MikeWard

11-27-2005, 03:03 PM

It is sad when the rig you started on is now the antique. :rolleyes:

Started as a volunteer in 1971 riding this rig, one of three Pirsch rigs that the McLean VFD purchased that were similar to the "alley cats" used by the District of Columbia. Like Prince George's (MD), some of the volunteer leadership in northern Virginia were career DC firefighters.

The career guys on Engine 1 would place 30 minute SCBA's in the hose bed and don them while the rig was responding and they were standing on the back step. Have vivid memories of feeling the intensity of a white Mars 888 light on the side of my face, holding on the grab rail for dear life as we slide through an intersection to beat Engine 13 into their district on a late night run.

Spent a little time on the tailboard once I got on the job in 1975. In the days before minimum staffing we would load the ambulance crew on Engine 18 (either the 1966 or 1967 open cab Seagrave twin) to provide a four or five person crew for a second alarm or "report of a working fire."

Ed/DPFDLT:
LODD deaths have dropped by 50% since your cousin died in Maryland.
We are doing a better job documenting non-traumatic deaths.
The RATE of firefighters dying in burning buildings due to non-cardiac causes has gone UP in the past 20 years.

webteam

11-27-2005, 03:33 PM

impressive.....refreshing a thread that almost dates back to the beginning of Firehouse.com! :)

WebTeam

hwoods

11-27-2005, 03:46 PM

Ah Yes...... I can identify the jurisdiction in TM25's post, But I really don't think I should mention the Wayson's Restaurant Fire in Anne Arundel County, Maryland, in any post such as this. So I Won't. Problem is, in my NOT-SO-HUMBLE Opinion, People worry TOO MUCH about my safety. Leave me alone and let me do my job. I've been doing this since Oct. 4, 1958, I've never been injured on the job, and more important, I've never gotten anyone else hurt. THAT IS IMPORTANT. If everyone goes thru their career without getting anyone else hurt, then we've solved the problem. Making the Fire Service safer has NOTHING to do with Kevlar, PBI, Pass Devices, Accountability, RIC Teams, and Thermal Imaging equipment. IT'S ALL ABOUT ATTITUDE!!! I can fight Fire SAFELY in 40 year old gear, using 50 year old equipment, and do better than a lot of people using our state of the art junk. Stay Safe....

I respectfully submit that my observations are still true today. BTW, I'm thinking of a Fantasy Island type of thing for people who want to spend a week in 1955. A little investment in time and money, and this could be a lot of fun. I'll need a couple of partners, of course. Here's the deal: We find a reasonable sized city in Mexico and offer to open an additional Fire Station for them. We Locate apparatus and equipment that date to '55 and outfit the station. For $500.00 per week, you vacation in Mexico, Ride the back step, pull cotton hose with brass couplings, wear canvas Duck coats and High rubber boots along with your choice of Aluminum or unlined leather helments. Wooden Ladders and manila rope are among the items on the rigs. No NFPA, No OSHA to screw things up. Any Takers??........ :D :D

And a word to Prof. Ward: Thanks for jogging the memories of the Pirsch pumpers. In PG, they were found at E3 Mt. Ranier, E1 Hyattsville, and E8 Seat Pleasant. Mt Ranier also had an 85' straight stick that matched the Engines.

hwoods

11-27-2005, 03:52 PM

impressive.....refreshing a thread that almost dates back to the beginning of Firehouse.com! :)

WebTeam

We do this because 1. - We can. 2. - We enjoy it. 3. - Someone new might learn from it. THANK YOU for making it possible. Gentlemen of the Forums: A standing round for the WT. Thank you.

MikeWard

11-27-2005, 03:57 PM

We find a reasonable sized city in Mexico and offer to open an additional Fire Station for them. We Locate apparatus and equipment that date to '55 and outfit the station. For $500.00 per week, you vacation in Mexico, Ride the back step, pull cotton hose with brass couplings, wear canvas Duck coats and High rubber boots along with your choice of Aluminum or unlined leather helments. Wooden Ladders and manila rope are among the items on the rigs. No NFPA, No OSHA to screw things up. Any Takers??

No different than the fantasy pro sport/rocker camps. Just have to make sure there is at least one room-and-contents and one master stream event each week.

And an AED hidden under the officer's seat! :D

Mike

jonemac

11-27-2005, 06:20 PM

SNIP
For $500.00 per week, you vacation in Mexico, Ride the back step, pull cotton hose with brass couplings, wear canvas Duck coats and High rubber boots along with your choice of Aluminum or unlined leather helments. Wooden Ladders and manila rope are among the items on the rigs. No NFPA, No OSHA to screw things up. Any Takers??........ :D :D

Ah those were the days...

You're forgetting 1700 psi 'demand' Scott packs (or those cursed oxygen-generating rebreathers), Jones Snap couplings, Wheat lights, and some more stuff I cant seem to think of now.

The problem, tho, with running it in Mexico is that you can't re-create the frozen thrill of riding the back step, late at night, the middle of January, and the temp is all of about 2 degrees. BEFORE you factor-in the wind chill. The driver could never tell if he had lost us or not, because we were hiding behind the hose bed trying to stay warm.

(Yes, I did all of that (well, except for the oxygen rebreather...there were still a few of 'em around, but most everyone was afraid of 'em-I never used one.)

Pipeman2

11-27-2005, 11:22 PM

Missing the rear step NOT during snow and ice storms or thunder storms..However life was great or should I say the view during the summer it did make for an interesting ride.

FTM PTB RFB
Box 8087

CALFFBOU

11-28-2005, 05:16 AM

Yo- I do NOT miss riding tailboard that much. Way, way too dangerous and I remember the truck hitting a bump and the 2-3 of us getting air and landing hard on our ankles.

Or holding in the other guy while he buttoned up his coat. Or the rain in our faces on a busy So. Cal. freeway.

Ok...so it was kinda fun...

ChiefReason

11-28-2005, 09:59 AM

jvencius

11-28-2005, 10:04 AM

We arrive to find a well-known restaurant and Liquor store with a large volume of smoke issuing from the building. There are crews inside making an interior attack and they are making excellent headway on this fire. Well, Mr Progressive "I fight fires with an IFSTA book" BAttalion Chief arrives on Location and backs all crews out because the structure was unoccupied and there was no need to place Firefighters in any danger to save the structure (Which was very much salvageable.)

My God, Man--save the liquor store if you do nothing else! :p :p :p :p :rolleyes:

Dave1983

11-28-2005, 10:22 AM

Tailboards nothin. Try hanging on the side running board of an old ALF tiller. That my friends, was an E ticket ride. :D

pfd4life

11-28-2005, 03:24 PM

The problem, tho, with running it in Mexico is that you can't re-create the frozen thrill of riding the back step, late at night, the middle of January, and the temp is all of about 2 degrees. BEFORE you factor-in the wind chill. The driver could never tell if he had lost us or not, because we were hiding behind the hose bed trying to stay warm.

I had the wonderful opportunity for the first two years of my FF life, that I could still sit in the back of an open cab on a cold winters morning, while bustilng down the highway with a Q blaring. It's an experience that just can never be re-created. There are many times I wish I'd have been born in the 60's so I could have lived through some of the glory days of the fire service..it really is an experience. Oh and before I forget, the pumper was a '71 ALF, fanatastic truck.

DennisTheMenace

11-28-2005, 03:38 PM

Co11FireGal

11-29-2005, 12:05 AM

The only time I have had the privilege of riding the tailstep has been for parades and community events. I so wish I could go back and experience the times passed that I have heard so many good things about...a spirit of community and a seemingly endless supply of people ready to volunteer, respect for elders and senior ff's/fire officers, community support, and a strong work ethic...all gone, at least in part. All gone with riding the tailstep, and it's sad to me so I KNOW it must be HORRIBLE for those who lived it and see some of the stuff that goes on now. I know that the fire service has come a long way, but we have taken a few steps back too. I love to sit around and hear the old stories, and I would go back in a heartbeat! :)

Now, I could leave it in the winter b/c I really don't like cold weather but it might be okay in the summer...and if some of our people would learn to drive! There are times when it has been hard enough to keep your eyes open enroute to a call when securely fastened in an enclosed cab...some of those times on bad roads on the tailstep?! NO WAY!!! :eek:

Dickey

11-29-2005, 03:58 AM

Wow, good thread!!

I came into the firefighting world in 1990 and my department banned riding tailboard just prior. I would have liked to experience it just once to say I did and taste what it was like in the "olden days." I have hear guys say that as they are going down the road, the guy next to you would hang on to you as your putting your gear on. Wearing the rubber "Red Ball" gloves that would freeze to the bar, or eating bugs as you go. Some guys said they would tuck their head and shoulders under the hosebed tarp to get out of the cold and rain. Like Dalmation said.....I think we are the first of the "new Generation" to not experience that.

I was able to experience some of the "olden days" by getting issued 3/4 boots and a long coat until for 6 months until my gear came in. The boots sucked and only was good to keep your feet dry.

My father fell off the tailboard once. Back in the 1950's, the fire truck would go past your house and you would run out and jump on. He jumped just as the truck took off and the two guys on the back tried to pull him up but he dragged his knees about 10-15 ft in the gravel. Ouch!! He got to the hospital and they used water and a wire brush to clean his wounds!!

I agree with the rest of you. I think we are much smarter today with the technology, science and inovation that has evolved over the years. The only thing standing in the way of progress is tradition. Now don't get me wrong, I am all for tradition as long as it's not a step backwards. I truly belive you have to know where you have been and remember the past so you can see where your going in the future and not make the same mistake twice. Plus you have to show respect to the "old timers" who have went before you.

I also agree that sometimes we can go overboard on being safe. if you want to be truly safe in this job...quit or stay back at the station. Face it, our job IS dangerous! We just have to reduce the amount of danger as much as we can with improved equipment, better tactics, fitness, and training.

To sum it all up, yes we are much better today. But it still would be fun to ride just once!
:D

MikeWard

11-29-2005, 10:45 PM

DennisTheMenace

11-30-2005, 11:49 AM

Thanks Dennis!

The "riot roof" was not installed until the rig went into reserve status. It was the last of that type of rig built by Pirsch and may have been one of a few that were delivered with a diesel motor.

Mike :D Wasn't its old twin(or older sibling) at Station 1 a gas motor? Is the roof solidly attached now or can it be unbolted for parade duty?

doughesson

11-30-2005, 01:16 PM

Just because the garbagemen can ride hanging off the back end of their trucks doesn't mean that we should too.
My district is made up of winding rural roads and if I can't answer a call without hanging on for dear life while inside a Pierce Enforcer,I damn sure don't want to be riding out in the wind on a call on these same roads.
In a past life,I worked on the river in Memphis and one of the jobs was for a refuelling outfit that had an old Hart's Bread truck for a crew van to run up and down the hill with.We used to hang on the back bumper while the driver did his level best to bounce us off.Great fun until someone got hurt.OSHA,MFD and the ops director bought the story that we had no other place for the crew guy that fell"overboard"to sit because it was true but loading up the van til there was no room to sit inside was verboten after that.
It should be for rural volunteer departments with curving back roads as well as big city paid departments that have urban unrest.
This job is dangerous enough without getting hurt/killed/maimed on the way to the fire.